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Steve Jobs' Yacht Impounded In Amsterdam

timothy posted about a year ago | from the that-sounds-spicy dept.

The Almighty Buck 221

SchrodingerZ writes "The Venus, Steve Jobs' custom-made mega yacht, (valued at 137.5 million dollars), has been impounded in Amsterdam. Philippe Starck, the boat's main designer, had The Venus impounded by debt collectors, after supposedly Starck and his company, Ubik, were paid only 6 million of the 9-million-euro commission. Roelant Klaassen, a lawyer for Ubik, released in a statement that 'These guys [Jobs and Starck] trusted each other, so there wasn't a very detailed contract.' 'The Venus is a floating ode to both Jobs and Starck's minimalist aesthetic. Made entirely out of aluminum, with 40-foot-long floor-to-ceiling windows lining the passenger compartment and seven 27-inch iMacs making up the command center.' The ship was unofficially unveiled in late October, a year after Jobs' death. It now sits dormant in the Port of Amsterdam, until the payment dispute is resolved."

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"Valued"? (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42379927)

"Valued at 137.5 M$"?

Ahem...

I gather that's what Jobs paid for it, but if his heirs were to put that ugly-ass, unseaworthy monstrosity up for sale, something tells me it would fetch a lot less.

Re:"Valued"? (3, Funny)

fustakrakich (1673220) | about a year ago | (#42379955)

...something tells me it would fetch a lot less.

How much does a pound of aluminum get you at the recycling center these days?

Re:"Valued"? (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42380059)

I am myself working on a minimalist torpedo, to be built out of aluminum and glass, powered by a Microsoft Zune running Damn Miniscule Linux, and can't wait to sink that floating monstrosity that artist masquerading as a computer scientist commissioned. Let it join him in a watery, minimalist beyond. :)

Steve doesn't miss it at all... (4, Insightful)

AliasMarlowe (1042386) | about a year ago | (#42380177)

Expect this dispute to drag out for a while. Steve is dead, and the market for mega-yachts is never brisk. If the contract had a high content of handshakes and winks instead of numbers with signatures, the dispute could get uglier than the yacht, and that's saying something.

Re:"Valued"? (1)

symbolset (646467) | about a year ago | (#42379973)

It's actually a nice boat. I wouldn't mind sailing on it.

Re:"Valued"? (0)

Ol Biscuitbarrel (1859702) | about a year ago | (#42379989)

I haven't RTFA, why does the OP think it's ugly? Rounded corners or something?

Re:"Valued"? (3, Insightful)

Runaway1956 (1322357) | about a year ago | (#42380091)

It's all the windows, for me. That yacht is incapable of weathering a real storm. Twenty foot seas will cave those ridiculous windows in, flood, then capsize the stupid thing.

You sail on it - I don't even want to take a tour while tied to a pier.

Re:"Valued"? (5, Funny)

DeBaas (470886) | about a year ago | (#42380541)

I'm sure in a storm Steve would reroute all power to the reality distortion field and it would be all Sunny and a flat sea for them.

Re:"Valued"? (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42380585)

Someone yelled what you're yelling, and now people are repeating this over the internets.
Runaway, you are a copy-pasting idiot, not a ship builder, yet you are pretending to make an intelligent comment by a ship builder.

Guess what, karma begging moron, one can build a seaworthy yacht with those windows:
http://www.liveyachting.com/motor-yacht-netanya-8
Guess what, skyscrapers catch even more wind, and they have vertical windows.
Guess what, you can design a window to cope with such minor forces, you can even design them to go into fucking space, and back.

Really, everybody with the "Oooh the windows will cave in and it will SINK" comments, and everyone who upmodded that to "5 Insightful" really needs a complete brain transplant. In any case you should be demoted from slashdot, go back to digg.

Re:"Valued"? (5, Informative)

Runaway1956 (1322357) | about a year ago | (#42380753)

You ASSume that because you've read the same or similar objections elsewhere, that I copy pasted my post? First, re-read my post, and point out where I mentioned wind, at all, please.

Maybe you would care to take a closer look at the Adams class destroyers I served aboard. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_F._Adams_class_destroyer [wikipedia.org] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:USS_Charles_F_Adams_(DDG-2)_underway_c1973.jpg [wikipedia.org]
Look at the photo, top right side of the page. Just aft of mount 51 (the big gun) and below the flying bridge. solidly welded to the main weather deck, you can see what we call a "break". It's purpose is to break the waves coming over the bow, so that they don't sweep men off the weather decks further aft. That structure is a solid piece of aluminum. Quite solidly welded at the bottom, and all the way up the side. As I recall, that structure was 3/4 inch thick.

You mention windows withstanding wind stronger than a ship has to withstand at sea. Your ignorance is two fold. Winds at sea are every bit as strong as they are anywhere above land. But - the wind is not the big deal. IT'S THE WATER!!!

When tens of thousands of tons of water tower over top of you, then come slamming down on your ship, then you begin to understand the power of the sea.

Look at that break again. We had ours, on the port side, ripped off one night in the North Atlantic. It was late at night, we heard one tremendous "BOOM" when we were hit by an especially large wave, then a hellacious "SCREEEECH" as the metal tore away. Luckily, the superstructure was not breached, or we would have had flooded spaces to deal with quickly, or we would have died.

Now, go look at your skyscrapers again. Tell me how often the Empire State building has crashed into more tons of water than you can possibly measure.

Maybe you'd like to revisit some of the tsunami damage done in the Pacific ocean a couple of years ago. How many skyscrapers withstood a 40 foot wall of water crashing into it at 30 knots or more?

Minor forces, you say? You are a complete and utter fool, who had better never go to sea. A minor force is what you are working with, mentally.

Re:"Valued"? (5, Funny)

drinkypoo (153816) | about a year ago | (#42380895)

Look at the photo, top right side of the page. Just aft of mount 51 (the big gun) and below the flying bridge

Now I know how people feel when I tell them to look at the component next to the capacitor next to the socket.

Re:"Valued"? (3, Interesting)

Runaway1956 (1322357) | about a year ago | (#42380773)

AFTER I posted, I actually looked at the link you posted - so I'm not done with your foolishness.

The Netanya is more seaworthy than Job's boat by at least an order of magnitude. Netanya has more windows than I am comfortable with, but they are a small fraction the size of Job's windows. Each pane appears to be solidly anchored, top, bottom, and both sides. As I say, I'm not completely comfortable with them, but they are sensibly sized, and sensibly located.

Next, look at the bow. A flared bow parts the waves, riding up over the bulk of the wave. You get far fewer of those thousands of tons of water crashing down on you with a flared bow. Look at the overhanging ledges of steel, helping to protect those windows. If/when a few tons of water come down on the windows, those ledges will catch much of the force.

The Netanya is streamlined in a fashion that enhances the flared bow. The weather deck, and most of the windows are protected by the flaring, as well as the breaks, which extend to the waist.

I don't *like* those forward facing windows on the first deck, but I'd be willing to sail on the Netanya.

You can't pay me to sail on Job's boat.

Re:"Valued"? (1)

Centurix (249778) | about a year ago | (#42380847)

Plumb bows are terrible in rough weather, they tend to pull down into swell. The increased water line does improve speed though.

Re:"Valued"? (5, Funny)

MrNemesis (587188) | about a year ago | (#42380625)

What makes you think those windows aren't made of inch-thick transparent aluminium? People inside will have a whale of a time, even in a storm.

Re:"Valued"? (4, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42380701)

you must be a mac user, they're always saying windows will be your downfall.

Re:"Valued"? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42380797)

I haven't RTFA, why does the OP think it's ugly? Rounded corners or something?

It looks like someone took a giant pointy dildo, tossed in a continuous row of windows, knocked it on its side, then built a house on it.

What?

The?

Fuck?

All it needs is a few palm trees in a little forest on deck, patrolled by polar bears.

Re:"Valued"? (5, Funny)

gfody (514448) | about a year ago | (#42379999)

Look at this: http://www.onemorething.nl/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/Schermafbeelding-2012-10-27-om-13.57.16.png [onemorething.nl] Jobs would've dropped dead at the site of the imac cables coming out of those ikea cabinets and duct taped to the floor.

Re:"Valued"? (1)

kimvette (919543) | about a year ago | (#42380841)

That's actually what killed him. It wasn't the pancreatic cancer.

Re:"Valued"? (0)

WaffleMonster (969671) | about a year ago | (#42380187)

It's actually a nice boat. I wouldn't mind sailing on it.

Why in God's name would you want that bucket of bolts?

Re:"Valued"? (5, Funny)

bkmoore (1910118) | about a year ago | (#42379995)

"Valued at 137.5 M$"?....something tells me it would fetch a lot less.

Yes, but it was machined from a single block of Aluminum.

Re:"Valued"? (1)

qbitslayer (2567421) | about a year ago | (#42380131)

Nope. It was printed by Steve Jobs' secret giant 3-D minimalist aluminum/glass printer. Even the imacs were printed.

Re:"Valued"? (2)

Runaway1956 (1322357) | about a year ago | (#42380145)

Funny - but, do you realize how frigging BIG a tooling facility would have to be, to machine a block of aluminum that size?

Here is one of the biggest presses in the world, and it's not big enough by a long shot:
http://www.cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2012/02/alcoas_50000-ton_ready_to_go_b.html [cleveland.com]

Re:"Valued"? (1)

mirix (1649853) | about a year ago | (#42380493)

Stamping or forging isn't machining, for what it's worth. Machining implies cutting processes - so turning, drilling, and milling.

Re:"Valued"? (1)

SternisheFan (2529412) | about a year ago | (#42380671)

I'd get it for myself, except I'm too cheap to buy Apple. Now, if it ran on Android...

Re:"Valued"? (1)

AZURERAZOR (472031) | about a year ago | (#42380849)

It would be much cheaper if it didn't have the 100% "Apple" Tax... wait till Samsung releases the knockoff

Re:"Valued"? (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42380741)

A true statement, however, simply machining Aluminium will not be as strong as pressing it to a shape.

Re:"Valued"? (1, Insightful)

Runaway1956 (1322357) | about a year ago | (#42380081)

Yeah - I looked at the photo. Forty foot long floor to ceiling windows? (in nautical terminology, that would be "forty foot long deck to overhead ports") I guess it's alright to build a boathouse with that kind of crap. A ship? Fek - unless they run the damned thing aground first, it WILL have to weather a storm someday.

Speaking as a squid who has seen green water (not foam or white water, but green water with fish visible in it) submerge the bridge on an Adams class destroyer, I most certainly don't want to weather a real storm on this all-aluminum-and-glass garbage scow.

Re:"Valued"? (1)

Iamthecheese (1264298) | about a year ago | (#42380175)

for the lazy [wikipedia.org]

Re:"Valued"? (5, Insightful)

Plunky (929104) | about a year ago | (#42380259)

A ship? Fek - unless they run the damned thing aground first, it WILL have to weather a storm someday.

You speak of storms, sir, yet you also speak of destroyers.. note that the military ships you speak of will be standing on station, or going places that are a bit out of the way for various reasons (training perhaps, to ensure that the crew can take the worst of the weather when they need to)

But perhaps you don't have a grasp of the leisure aspect especially of the superyacht set? Those boats, like warships, can also travel at 40kts and have access to satellite images, wave height data and very good weather forecasting. They don't need to be anywhere near bad weather and indeed they usually run away when a violent storm approaches. They don't need to demonstrate how tough they are, and the people who own them really just like to lounge around in calm conditions in the sun. They can cross oceans in the calmest conditions, dodging around the worst weather and they usually do. The focus of design of such a yacht is not to endure terrible weather while carrying goods halfway around the world, nor to blockade a port in all weathers. The focus is that the owner is noticed, and envied for their wealth. That this boat is ugly is neither here nor there, it was custom built for 137 MILLION dollars and everybody knows it. The point was that people would look and say Oooh, that belongs to Steve Jobs, I can only dream I could be rich like him.

Re:"Valued"? (0, Flamebait)

Runaway1956 (1322357) | about a year ago | (#42380277)

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/hollywood-ship-hms-bounty-sinks-mutiny-pirates-caribbean-384716 [hollywoodreporter.com]

If you go down to the sea, be prepared. Only a fool would go to sea aboard a vessel that isn't seaworthy. Only a fool - and the seas don't give a small rat's ass how much money you have, or how many "experts" agreed that it would be safe.

Even seaworthy vessels can go down, if not crewed by extremely competent AND lucky crewmembers:
http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/titanic.htm [eyewitnesstohistory.com]

http://www.boatnerd.com/fitz/ [boatnerd.com]

Did I mention luck? Even the best of ships and the best of crews can be swallowed whole, and vanish without trace when their luck has run out.

Re:"Valued"? (1, Insightful)

Plunky (929104) | about a year ago | (#42380405)

Yes, more or less my point exactly...

Bounty

what were they doing out there in the face of a storm? They thought the ship would be safer at sea but they sure as hell weren't capable of running away from the storm track at 40kts. Even at 25kts, they could have been in florida the day before, or they could have gone the other way and been halfway to europe.

Titanic

They were on a scheduled crossing with beancounters in control (not in command) and the captain was all 'full steam ahead' when icebergs had been reported.. and note that RADAR had not yet been invented nor did he have access to satellite imagery

Fitz

They were out on the job going somewhere because they had to get there, in the worst storm the captain had ever seen! leisure superyachts have a different lifestyle, they don't do that.

Only a fool would go to sea aboard a vessel that isn't seaworthy.

Except that in these modern times, there are plenty of leisure vessels that are seaworthy for the conditions they are used in but not capable of withstanding a hurricane. Is every person who rows across a calm bay on a summer day a fool, because they didn't have a survival suit and an EPIRB on board? Every sailing boat does not need to be equipped for Cape Horn, when they are only going to Catalina Island for the weekend..

Re:"Valued"? (1)

drinkypoo (153816) | about a year ago | (#42380901)

Is every person who rows across a calm bay on a summer day a fool, because they didn't have a survival suit and an EPIRB on board? Every sailing boat does not need to be equipped for Cape Horn, when they are only going to Catalina Island for the weekend..

Pure prevarication. We're talking about oceangoing and you want to talk about people tooling around a bathtub. 40kts sounds like a lot until you compare it to the speed at which a storm can move.

Re:"Valued"? (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42380921)

blah blah blah RADAR blah blah blah RADAR blah blah blah

The USS Spruance once ran into Andros Island. She hit so hard she broke off her main mast.

In the middle of the day. They had, get this, RADAR. They even had EYEBALLS.

The best crews. The best training. No pressure to be somewhere quickly. Yet shit still JUST HAPPENS.

You are clueless. You really are FUCKING CLUELESS.

The Bounty could go 25 knots? No it fucking couldn't. Maybe 16 or 17. With a tailwind. In good seas. In any swells at all that thing would be lucky to do 12 knots.

Ever been on a 1,000-foot long, 100,000-ton vessel that gets smacked by a wave so damn hard the whole ship rings like a bell and the hull plates on the port quarter get stove in?

Shit happens out there. And when it does, all it takes is one mistake and lots of people can die.

And all the electronics available "in these modern times" (I'm LOL at that - literally) won't matter one bit. Cuz the ocean don't fucking care how "modern" you are when it swallows your toy boat with all its pretty windows whole. (OK, they're BUTT UGLY windows, but the point still stands)

That yacht - no matter its intended "lifestyle" - is an OCEANGOING VESSEL, but it's built in such a way that it simply can not withstand the rigors of what WILL happen out in the ocean. And all the talismans available "in these modern times" can't protect it.

Might as well put a bone in your nose.

Cuz the ocean don't fucking care.

Damn sheltered idiots, thinking just because modern conveniences have made their life easy that there aren't places on this planet that just don't fucking care about that and will KILL them.

"Oh, we'll just avoid that."

Not out in the middle of the ocean you fucking won't.

Re:"Valued"? (4, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42380837)

A ship? Fek - unless they run the damned thing aground first, it WILL have to weather a storm someday.

You speak of storms, sir, yet you also speak of destroyers.. note that the military ships you speak of will be standing on station, or going places that are a bit out of the way for various reasons (training perhaps, to ensure that the crew can take the worst of the weather when they need to)

But perhaps you don't have a grasp of the leisure aspect especially of the superyacht set? Those boats, like warships, can also travel at 40kts and have access to satellite images, wave height data and very good weather forecasting. They don't need to be anywhere near bad weather and indeed they usually run away when a violent storm approaches. They don't need to demonstrate how tough they are, and the people who own them really just like to lounge around in calm conditions in the sun. They can cross oceans in the calmest conditions, dodging around the worst weather and they usually do. The focus of design of such a yacht is not to endure terrible weather while carrying goods halfway around the world, nor to blockade a port in all weathers. The focus is that the owner is noticed, and envied for their wealth. That this boat is ugly is neither here nor there, it was custom built for 137 MILLION dollars and everybody knows it. The point was that people would look and say Oooh, that belongs to Steve Jobs, I can only dream I could be rich like him.

Ships go to sea.

They will get hit by waves. Big ones.

Shit happens out at see, and out there you're literally hundreds if not thousands of miles away from help.

Think about this, bright boy: you're two days out (i.e., it's gonna take you to days to make ANY port) and a squall blows up that drops a waterspout over your toy and wipes out all your antennae.

OOoops.

What you going to do now, Einstein? Have spare antennae helicoptered out to you? Your too damn far out.

Oh, you'll just go 40 knots? First, that little pissant toy doesn't carry enough fuel to go 40 knots for any length of time. Two, with those ridiculous windows going 40 knots is downright dangerous - catch a 10 foot swell wrong and buh-bye windows and half your hull is now open to the sea. Three, that toy can't do 40 knots anyway:

Those boats, like warships, can also travel at 40kts

BWWWAAA HAAA HAAA

I was a Surface Warfare Officer (Nuclear) in the US Navy. You're FULL OF SHIT.

Cruise ships and container vessels are usually about the fastest things crossing the seas at 25 knots or a bit faster. Warships can go balls-to-the-wall and get up over 30, but that burns a LOT of fuel, and they usually just poke about at 15 knots or so. Aircraft carriers because of their length can get up over 35 knots, but they'd just outrun their escorts.

Re:"Valued"? (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42380093)

"Valued at 137.5 M$"?

Ahem...

I gather that's what Jobs paid for it, but if his heirs were to put that ugly-ass, unseaworthy monstrosity up for sale, something tells me it would fetch a lot less.

Break it up and scrap it making sure those silly 27 inch imac shit heaps get well trashed first thing ..

Re:"Valued"? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42380395)

Probably, especially since the non-replaceable batteries will eventually die and they will have to throw it away and get a new one.

Re:"Valued"? (1)

DrXym (126579) | about a year ago | (#42380621)

The heirs should count themselves lucky. If the Apple logo had been fixed in place the boat would have been valued at 250 million.

Strange (4, Insightful)

Nerdfest (867930) | about a year ago | (#42379931)

Someone trusted Steve Jobs? Obviously they didn't know him that well.

Someone trusted Starck? (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42380123)

Right, designing a ship is really worth $9 million, and the late Steve Jobs didn't give him a contract to back up his claim, and he's not inflating his commission or anything....

You know what? I don't believe him. More like he's inflated his bill, as soon as the lawyer says they trusted each other, that was the point at which I turned off my BS detector rather it overloads.

BTW, Steve Jobs is dead, he's not back from the grave ripping off an honest hard working designer who drew a yacht, rather the designer wants $9 million but doesn't have a contract to back it up, and just expects Job's wife to fork over a few million more like she's a naive idiot new to business.

She should counter-sue, $6 million even sounds too much for a design.

News for nerds? Stuff that matters? (0)

jkrise (535370) | about a year ago | (#42379933)

Except that the thing is controlled by Macs with large screens, how is this piece of news relevant on Slashdot?

Re:News for nerds? Stuff that matters? (1)

jkrise (535370) | about a year ago | (#42379947)

(valued at 137.5 million dollars)

Yeah, this bit of info could be of relevance to nerds. Infringement of 3 software patents has been adjudicated by a jury for over a billion dollars. So a single software patent can fetch you more than enough money to build yourself a complete custom made yacht. From one infringing company, that too.

Guess that could be enough motivation for nerds to obtain software patents.

Re:News for nerds? Stuff that matters? (1)

Sulphur (1548251) | about a year ago | (#42380003)

(valued at 137.5 million dollars)

Yeah, this bit of info could be of relevance to nerds. Infringement of 3 software patents has been adjudicated by a jury for over a billion dollars. So a single software patent can fetch you more than enough money to build yourself a complete custom made yacht. From one infringing company, that too.

Guess that could be enough motivation for nerds to obtain software patents.

Its inner hull is made of titanium and it can dive to 3000 feet.

Re:News for nerds? Stuff that matters? (5, Funny)

drkim (1559875) | about a year ago | (#42380209)

Its inner hull is made of titanium and it can dive to 3000 feet.

Any ship can dive to 3000 feet.
It's not drowning everyone and coming back to the surface that's the hard part...

Re:News for nerds? Stuff that matters? (1)

dbIII (701233) | about a year ago | (#42380013)

And what's more, the custom made yacht can be used to funnel money out of one region to another without having to pay much tax on it. That's where the craze for buying stupidly expensive yachts with gold fittings sailing them once across the Atlantic and then selling them came from. Tax laws have caught up so they tend to get kept longer now than some decades ago and are usually not so stupidly opulent, and tend not to have easily removable gold fittings with no apparent purpose.

Re:News for nerds? Stuff that matters? (0)

Macrat (638047) | about a year ago | (#42380049)

And what's more, the custom made yacht can be used to funnel money out of one region to another without having to pay much tax on it.

At least Apple pays taxes. Unlike GE that doesn't may any tax at all.

Re:News for nerds? Stuff that matters? (1)

ohnocitizen (1951674) | about a year ago | (#42379957)

Ahahahahahaha. "Relevant". "News". Oh my god I want to put you in a tiny christmas sweater and plop a chihuahua on your lap and take photos for cuteoverload.

Re:News for nerds? Stuff that matters? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42380043)

Except that the thing is controlled by Macs with large screens, how is this piece of news relevant on Slashdot?

It isn't relevant. But it will get clicks so some morons can try and out do reach other with lame jokes and attempt to shout 'I hate apple' loudest. Not to mention the ad hominems that are bound to come.

That's slashdot for you

Re:News for nerds? Stuff that matters? (1)

Macrat (638047) | about a year ago | (#42380045)

Except that the thing is controlled by Macs with large screens, how is this piece of news relevant on Slashdot?

Slashdot loves Macs.

token joke post (2)

Sigvatr (1207234) | about a year ago | (#42379937)

Well, it's not like he will be needing it any time soon.

Re:token joke post (1)

Jetra (2622687) | about a year ago | (#42380887)

Yes. Oh my, whatever shall he do? Perhaps God will allow him to come down long enough to finish his payments...If only that were true T_T

Ugly boat anyway. (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42379941)

Looks like its made out of lego. If I was a billionaire I would design something like the Maltese Falcon Yacht. Now THAT is a work of art!

Re:Ugly boat anyway. (1, Flamebait)

Runaway1956 (1322357) | about a year ago | (#42380105)

I'm not real sure about the Maltese Falcon's seaworthiness - but I'd be willing to sail on it, to see what I think of it. Job's yacht? I might risk my ex-wife's life aboard that thing, but you wouldn't see me stepping aboard, for any reason.

Yea good luck selling that (0)

Osgeld (1900440) | about a year ago | (#42379951)

137 mil, yea its a 137 million dollar monument to fugly

Re:Yea good luck selling that (1, Troll)

Tablizer (95088) | about a year ago | (#42380053)

A long metallic box with lots of windows.

It looks like shit today, but in a hundreds years they'll have a renewed and fresh perspective, step back, and gaze upon it as a thorough and genuine work of.....crap, still.

Trying to care (1)

symbolset (646467) | about a year ago | (#42379961)

It might something something me. Ah hell I lost it.

Go Thermonucular! (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42379963)

You can trust Steve Jobs. He's dead. And you can trust Apple just as much until they're dead.

They won't stop until they destroy Android, Open Source, freedom, and shipbuildings with a vision.

May they all die in peace. Quickly.

Hehe, trust Steve Jobs (4, Insightful)

SmallFurryCreature (593017) | about a year ago | (#42379975)

Those that don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it. Steve Jobs was a nasty mean spirited jerk who always cheated everyone whenever he could. Even close friends. In fact, he has no close friends, just victims who like battered wives thought that THIS time he would change. It is quite sad really that the guy himself that he could never get over his past. Shows you that money doesn't really make people happy.

You got to wonder what made him this way, so obsessed about money and power that he would screw supposed friends over and not even see it as wrong. And continue to do that when any new money would just be a number on a bank account. Compared to Jobs, people like Gates, Branson and Buffet seem a lot happier. Not nicer perhaps in their past but at least with age they learned not to be total assholes all the time. It is not like Jobs did not do any charity but more people will remember him as a prick then as a benefactor. Despite the fact that those friends he did screw over ultimately didn't exactly walk away empty handed.

My epitaph will probably read something like "who?" but it is better then "well, he did give us the iPod but he was such a dick". It not even as if he will be remembered as all that evil. It is just the paranoid always looking out for number 1 that people finally were able to vent after he died.

The guy who made an American company actually produce cool gadgets is more remembered for even in death trying to cheat "friends" and all that over a boat whose ugliness shows that whatever Steve Jobs had for talent, an eye for design was not one of them.

And now for the final insult: This post written on a Samsung Android Phone.

Cry havoc and release the Apple fans!

Re:Hehe, trust Steve Jobs (1)

dbIII (701233) | about a year ago | (#42380017)

Those that don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it

Edison!

Re:Hehe, trust Steve Jobs (2)

Tablizer (95088) | about a year ago | (#42380063)

By some accounts, Edison was semi-mellow, but investors pressured him to be ruthless after alternating current started hurting their business.

On Intensity: (0, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42380029)

You know, many have pointed out that men from the middle east (like Job's birth parents) are often intense and overly aggressive. The alleged reason is that in a polygamist society the male competition is far more intense than monogamist societies because some men having many wives means others will have zero wives, and this puts evolutionary pressure to "win" a mate at all costs, even at the risk of death and betrayal.

This may sound "racist" and perhaps "is", but the evidence increasingly is pointing this way, including terrorism evidence. At least think about it and research rather than just mod me a "racist". I'm only presenting an idea to consider. If it's wrong, so be it, but at least look into it on your own even if it strikes you oddly upon first encountering it.

Re:On Intensity: (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42380061)

It sounds "racist" because to anyone educated it is apparent that the timescales necessary to effect major changes to a populace's psychology through evolution are far, far, far greater than the length of time that institutional polygamy has been present in the middle east. The entirety of written human history is a drop in the bucket as far as evolution is concerned, and to suggest that one can infer psychological traits for an entire race based on cultural organization from the past few thousand years (at most) is the very definition of racism -- the only question is whether it is racism stemming from maleficence or ignorance.

Re:On Intensity: (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42380073)

Roughly a third of all males having zero mates is pretty strong and immediate evolutionary pressure. It would be interesting to do a simulation on such.

Re:On Intensity: (1)

Runaway1956 (1322357) | about a year ago | (#42380119)

*cough*

Polygamy has existed in the mideast since prehistory. Want to try again, with that time scale bullshit?

I don't really agree with GP's post, but it's something that should make a thinking person scratch his head and actually think, before dismissing it as nonsense.

Re:On Intensity: (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42380147)

"Since prehistory" meaning "slightly longer than in written history", or (equivalently) "still nowhere near long enough to infer evolutionary implications."

Re:On Intensity: (1)

Runaway1956 (1322357) | about a year ago | (#42380291)

Nonsense. We have bred various breeds of dogs, horses, cats, swine, chickens, and other animals for our own purposes, within the span of recorded history. We have seen changes in non-domesticated animals, as well. If we can make evolutionary changes in those animals, then we can experience evolutionary changes ourselves within the span of recorded history.

Re:On Intensity: (1)

FatLittleMonkey (1341387) | about a year ago | (#42380403)

Not to mention the Russian Arctic Fox program that turned the wild form into happy puppy-dogs in just 10 generations, simply by selecting for handleablility. Major change in behaviour (and appearance) in just a few generations. A hundred generations is plenty of time for culture to affect us.

(Belyaev did the opposite too. Selected a group for the least handleable. Now them's some fun doggies.)

Generation time lenght (1)

DrYak (748999) | about a year ago | (#42380433)

We have bred various breeds of dogs, horses, cats, swine, chickens, and other animals for our own purposes, within the span of recorded history. {...} If we can make evolutionary changes in those animals, then we can experience evolutionary changes ourselves within the span of recorded history.

The problem with this is the time that 1 generation takes.
- For bacteria, you can observe a lot interesting stuff happening, because a single generation has a time span between couple of dozens of minute and a hour. On a single day you can get near to 100 generations. Spend just 1 week observing them (a little bit less than a thousand generations), and you can see the effect of lots of generation reproducing and adapting and evolving. (That why bacteria are so problematic regarding antibiotic resistance: they evolve rapidly simply because they live at another time scale).
- All the animals you mention have generations that take a couple of years. To observe the effect of evolution (still aiming for a thousand+ generations), you need quite a lot of generations, over a couple of millennia (which is, *indded* the span of recorded history).
- Humans are among the slowest animals to reach maturity, they only start reproducing after a decade and a half, 10 time longer than the other animals you mention. Thus still keeping the time frame you give, this would require a 10 time longer time span to observe the same amount of evolution. We're not speaking a couple of millennia here, but a couple of dozens of millennia, which is much longer than recorded history (and coincidentally is around the age of the homo sapiens specie - so indeed we can expect to have evolution happening at this time scale. The diversifications of ethnicities, for example).

In short:
1000 generations of a bacteria != 1000 generations of cats != 1000 generations of humans != 1000 generation of even slower maturing living being (some trees for example).

And that's neglecting the whole question of evolutionary pressure.

Re:Generation time lenght (-1, Offtopic)

Runaway1956 (1322357) | about a year ago | (#42380561)

I did mention horses. Horses have life expectancies roughly 1/3 to 1/2 that of humans. You might want to throw that into you "not equal to" calculations, then see how it all compares to selective breeding for human beings. it might also be interesting to trace life expectancies for humans versus horses throughout history. What was a human's life expectancy 1000 years ago, compared to a highly valued war horse?

Slaves might be massacred for little if any reason, whereas a valuable war horse would be pampered and babied, and the best physicians called in if it appeared to be ill.

And, BTW - you expose your cultural upbringing when you assume humans only begin breeding at age fifteen. For much of history, and probably all of prehistory, common wisdom said, "If it's old enough to bleed, it's old enough to breed." We still see that today, both in the US among "fundamental" Mormon groups, as well as overseas in Islamic parts of the world. If a girl reaches puberty at age 10, some of bastard is waiting around to stick it to her.

So, you're right that evolutionary changes in humans probably take 100 times longer than in dogs. But, it probably only takes three times as long as for horses.

Re:On Intensity: (1)

KiloByte (825081) | about a year ago | (#42380487)

Wrong, it's polygamy that's natural, and monogamy that appeared only in early stages of the agricultural revolution because agriculture is far more labour intensive than hunting-gathering. Just take a look at other primates and almost all mammals -- or pretty much, anything but some birds.

Re:On Intensity: (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42380727)

Millions of years are not required to select for traits which are already present in a large percentage of the population (i.e. extreme assholery), especially when the selection pressure is about as high as it can get. Be an asshole, have 100 asshole children; be a nice guy, die a virgin. I'd say in most parts of the world other than the Middle East and various parts of Africa, those traits have merely been diluted slightly over the last few thousand (maybe even last few hundred) years.

Re:On Intensity: (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42380111)

So where is this evidence you speak off? How can we judge if it we only have your word?

Re:Hehe, trust Steve Jobs (1)

ArchieBunker (132337) | about a year ago | (#42380163)

Oddly enough Wozniak seems to be the polar opposite.

And Wozniak will be rememberd as a nice guy (4, Interesting)

SmallFurryCreature (593017) | about a year ago | (#42380211)

Nice guy, clever and rich... a bit dim perhaps in choosing his friends or at least in doing business with friends (although staying friends even if friends are not perfect is what good guys do). But nice, clever and rich foremost. Neither Jobs or Wozniak ever needed to worry about where their next meal would come from for a long time. So... who would you want to be? The super rich billionaire Jobs or the quite comfortable millionaire Wozniak?

Re:And Wozniak will be rememberd as a nice guy (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42380855)

Wozniac has a cherubic face, which is a polite way of saying he's fat.

Jobs - pancreatic cancer, and he's a prick.

I don't want to be either one.

Re:Hehe, trust Steve Jobs (1)

drkim (1559875) | about a year ago | (#42380227)

My epitaph will probably read something like "who?" but it is better then "well, he did give us the iPod but he was such a dick".

Someday his entire listing in the history books will read something like, "Worked briefly with the great Steve Wozniak. See: Wozniak, Steve."

Wake up to Ubik and be wild! (2, Funny)

Ol Biscuitbarrel (1859702) | about a year ago | (#42380011)

We wanted to give you a shave like no other you ever had. We said, It's about time a man's face got a little loving. We said, With Ubik's self-winding Swiss chromium never-ending blade, the days of scrape-scrape are over. So try Ubik. And be loved. Warning: use only as directed. And with caution.
----------------------
AMAZING OPPORTUNITY FOR ADVANCEMENT

TO ALL WHO CAN QUALIFY!

Mr. Glen Runciter of the Beloved Brethren Moratorium of Zürich, Switzerland, doubled his income within a week of receiving our free shoe kit with detailed information as to how you also can sell our authentic simulated-leather loafers to friends, relatives, business associates.

Re:Wake up to Ubik and be wild! (1)

drkim (1559875) | about a year ago | (#42380237)

Great reference!!

Wait, does this mean Jobs is alive -- and we're all dead...??!

Re:Wake up to Ubik and be wild! (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42380843)

Disappointing that it took this long to get a PKD reference. Nerds indeed.

That is the ugliest (2, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42380065)

That is the ugliest piece of shit I have ever seen. Its not a boat, its an accident at the aluminum smelter. Not to worry though: you can put it out of its misery by melting it down and turning it into about 500 million Android phones (you could sell the lot for the cost of about 20 iPhones(tm)), and Android would go from 75% market share to 95% market share. Just think about how many iPhones you would have to sell to buy one of these: about 20 iPad owners collectively could have bought it though.

Re:That is the ugliest (1)

SternisheFan (2529412) | about a year ago | (#42380709)

To whoever buys it, please melt it down and make something useful out of it.

EU money grubbers (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42380089)

washing each other's back.
Jobs didn't design the ugly boat. And it's only a $7M design.

Force of will (1)

WinstonWolfIT (1550079) | about a year ago | (#42380125)

You recon Jobs is telling God rectangles ought to have rounded corners?

Re:Force of will (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42380777)

No, he's trying to demand that the devil turn down the thermostat.

Obligatory joke post (5, Funny)

WWJohnBrowningDo (2792397) | about a year ago | (#42380135)

It now sits dormant in the Port of Amsterdam

And here I thought it would require a proprietary port.

tarot de sol (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42380229)

Someone trusted Steve Jobs? Obviously they didn't know him that well.

Port of Amsterdam (1)

andrewa (18630) | about a year ago | (#42380275)

Shit, now I have Jaques Brel songs in my head....

Steve Jobs' Yacht (1)

darkfeline (1890882) | about a year ago | (#42380285)

I thought the man died already. Are the dead allowed to own things now? Can they bring civil disputes to court? brb, raising some zombies

Re:Steve Jobs' Yacht (1)

PolygamousRanchKid (1290638) | about a year ago | (#42380333)

Dead people earn a lot of money: http://www.forbes.com/2006/10/23/tech-media_06deadcelebs_cx_pk_top-earning-dead-celebrities_land.html [forbes.com]

It's difficult to put them in jail, though, for evading taxes. Or at least for the cellmate, who has to bunk with a stinking corpse.

If they put that dingy up for auction, some rich Arab or Russian would pay twice the price for it.

Re:Steve Jobs' Yacht (1)

FatLittleMonkey (1341387) | about a year ago | (#42380357)

brb, raising some zombies

That's not a nice thing to call your lawyers.

Re:Steve Jobs' Yacht (1)

ColdWetDog (752185) | about a year ago | (#42380469)

Actually that is a rather nice thing to call lawyers, all things considered.

That's one ugly yacht (3, Insightful)

DrXym (126579) | about a year ago | (#42380359)

I'm sure it's decked out with all sorts of cool innovations but god does it look ugly. I can't put my finger on the wrongness except to say the boat looks like the bastard offspring of some 7 year old's first experiments designing a boat with only straight lines and a 1970's prefab building.

Re:That's one ugly yacht (1)

Tough Love (215404) | about a year ago | (#42380417)

Apple is just lucky that Steve Jobs never tried to peddle iBoats. Maybe somebody already had the patent on rounded boat corners?

The Legacy Lives On! (5, Funny)

VortexCortex (1117377) | about a year ago | (#42380361)

paid only 6 million of the 9-million

Clearly, they were holding it wrong.

I heard that... (1)

Tough Love (215404) | about a year ago | (#42380391)

I heard that Memphis Methodist University Hospital wants their liver back too.

The thing I love (1)

Swampash (1131503) | about a year ago | (#42380475)

about pages like this, is that the jokes are all so ORIGINAL!

Re:The thing I love (1)

Petersko (564140) | about a year ago | (#42380521)

I know, right? If only we had a beowulf cluster of them. And maybe micro$oft could be involved somehow...

Your equipment leaks? check your FRS channels (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42380651)

TEMPEST Attacks! LCD Monitor leaks system noise to FRS
==
I don't operate any wireless equipment at my living location. This includes computers, computer equipment, routers, non-computer equipment, etc.

I'm having a problem with one of my LCD monitors.

It works without problems. That was until I picked up some heavy static noises from a hand held radio. I eliminated all sources of generating this type of noise until I came towards an LCD monitor. When the monitor is on and there is content on the screen the radio makes several types of garbage(static) sounds. As I manipulate contents on the screen, maximize and minimize windows, open different applications, the radio responds with scratchy(static) noises to match the activity on the screen. This includes typing and mouse movement.

When I switched the desktop background to a solid black color without wallpaper, the radio noise went down to almost nothing. But when I loaded any program with a white background, the noise from the radio exploded in volume.

When I passed the radio across different computer and non-computer electronic devices other than the LCD monitor, the wired mouse made a high pitched squeal sound within the static. None of the other computing devices such as the tower generated any noise.

I tried CRT monitors and separate computers attached to the CRT monitors but they did not generate any noise in the radio. On the computer connected to the net, I unplugged the cable leading to the router to rule this out but it made no difference, the LCD monitor is at fault.

While monitoring the radio noise, there were several instances where the noise on the channel being monitored stopped, and I switched to another channel and the same noise appeared. Why would the noise from the LCD switch channels during normal use of the LCD? Back and forth throughout the day the noise generated by the LCD would switch from one channel to the next and back to the first channel again.

The noise extends several steps within my living location. I'll test this another day to determine if it extends outside my living location and if so by how many feet.

The computer/monitor are grounded and attached to a surge protector. I'm not sure what I need to do to stop this, or if I should ignore it.

I assumed LCDs would be quieter than CRTs when it came to noise.

Unless I have a radio tuned to a specific channel, the LCD does not generate any noise which I can detect, unless it's above my hearing capacity.

The LCD monitor also functions as speakers, and while the sound cable is connected to the tower, I have disabled the onboard sound in my BIOS. The only other connection is the DVI cable to the tower.

How may I decrease this noise or eliminate it? It seems like the LCD is a mini radio station. When I turn it off the noise in the radio stops, if I blacken the screen the noise lessens. When I switch to a colorful background or load white screened applications like a web browser the noise jumps up loudly. I've tried grabbing and moving a browser window around the screen and the movement matches the noises in the radio.

Would any of this be considered normal?
===
This certainly isn't unheard of, it's because some part of the monitor is unshielded. The more fix-it stuff is at the top of the following, with the technical backdrop that just might be good to know is at the bottom.

Unfortunately, the issue is most likely the panel charging the LCs. The only thing you can do is see if the manufacturer will replace it or upgrade you. Complain to the manufacturer, be sure to come up with some important thing it's interfering with(if I recall some medical devices use some sort of radio).

If the issue is actually internal wiring which is highly unlikely as detailed below, and it isn't in warranty, attempt to shield it yourself. To shield it yourself, you'll need thin foil(not kitchen foil) and electrical tape.

So, in any given monitor, there's 3 main parts. Input, logic, and output. Output, as previously mentioned, can't really be shielded. To shield both of the other sections, all you really need to do is manipulate the wiring to reduce the number of holes in the foil wrap needed to put it all back together. Obviously this will take some trial and error, and time.

USEFUL INFO THAT ISN'T REQUIRED:

Shielding wires can best be thought of as a encasing a wire in a Faraday cage, made of foil. If you want to see an example, Apple's iPod charging cords are all shielded, strip the insulation and see for yourself. This shielding acts doubly, keeping EM noise from messing with the signal, and keeps the signal's own noise from leaving.

WHY IT IS THE CHARGING PANEL AND NOT WIRING:
Because of the specific details you provided( bravo to you, the amount of data provided helped ), I can conclude that the charging panel(the array of electrodes responsible for producing the image) is putting out the interference. Three of your observations prove this.

First, you state the noise ceases completely when the monitor is turned off, which is consistent with it being EM noise.
Second, the noise's perceived pitch changes when the display is manipulated, which is to be expected, as the electrode charges would change as the display changes.
Third, a black screen is "quieter" than a white screen. Black is the lowest charge state, with the only power in use going to the backlight.

As for your questions:
Noise hopping channels isn't unheard of, though I don't know the science behind it. My best guess is that because the noise isn't an intended result of the electricity, small changes in voltage/amperage result in those hops.
(indirect question-ish) The mouse was likely the only other emitter because it has a fairly high density of wires + it emits light.
===
@W00t:

What 1s the d1fference between - and where may 1 obta1n the non-k1tchen "foil" you ment1oned?

The d1sturbances sound l1ke a bugged env1ronment. The squeal com1ng from one area and/or dev1ce could mean the locat1on of the bug has been found - and 1 know adding a small dev1ce and/or mod1f1cation to a keyboard and/or mouse 1s s1mple enough - espec1ally for a quick 1n and out the door type bugging.

1s there an affordable method of sh1elding the equ1pment while not violating FCC/TEMPEST laws? Would a simple screen d1mmer attached to the monitor bring the no1se down? Or would 1t be best to put out the extra money requ1red by purchas1ng spec1al paint or wallpaper wh1ch blocks RF signals?

Whether or not 1t's a bug, at this point you are broadcast1ng your computer mon1tor and 1ts activ1t1es, down to the keyboard and mouse movements. What 1s the use of using Tor or any other l1ke serv1ce 1f you are pwned over the a1r waves?
====
You could use kitchen foil, it's just more unwieldy to work with.

Yes, it could be a bug, I was running under the assumption you had no reason to believe you were bugged, and if you did you ran bug sweeps. If you believe you are bugged, you should definitely dismantle things to make sure a bug isn't simply piggybacking on the same power source.

Dimming the screen would reduce noise, but not completely eliminate it.
==
Thanks, W00t.

"Dimming the screen would reduce noise, but not completely eliminate it."

I have modified my browser to function with a black background and my choice of text colors and unchecked the option for all pages to use their own colors, so every page I visit is black with my choice of font/links colors. I'll rescan to determine if this lessens the noise. It's ugly, but tolerable. Coupled with a black theme for the desktop, including the background and system wide applications should also help - including disabling images in the browser.

You mentioned foil. I'm not an electrician, but wouldn't wrapping cords with foil and finishing the job off with a layer of strong black tape possibly conduct electricity? Are you suggesting I cover all wires leading to the computer(s) using this method? Wouldn't they each require special grounding? How many repeating layers of this and/or other material is needed? Have you tried "conductive tubing?"

While I want to shield enough to block noisy RF, I don't want to create a microwave type scenario where RF is contained but it still remains and is possibly amplified so as to add to the degeneration of my health, if that's possible.

1. Ferrite beads
2. Split beads
3. Toroids

CONDUCTIVE TUBING & FERRITE SNAP BEAD
http://www.lessemf.com/wiring.html [lessemf.com]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_interference [wikipedia.org]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_radiation_and_health [wikipedia.org]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_shielding [wikipedia.org]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EMF_measurement [wikipedia.org]

I could try some or all of the three options above in addition to your advice? TY
===
Anyways this reminding me of Van Eck phreaking look it up, some pretty interesting stuff.

Yep, had the same thought.

Countermeasures are detailed in the article on TEMPEST, the NSA's standard on spy-proofing digital equipment. One countermeasure involves shielding the equipment to minimize electromagnetic emissions. Another method, specifically for video information, scrambles the signals such that the image is perceptually undisturbed, but the emissions are harder to reverse engineer into images. Examples of this include low pass filtering fonts and randomizing the least significant bit of the video data information.
==
can someone please point me to techie LCD monitor internal guides? If I'm going to take it apart I'd like to know what to expect. I've read more about Van Eck and Tempest than anyone can teach me here. Now I'm looking for LCD guides of what's inside.
===
To be honest, its not the whats inside the LCD monitor you should be worrying about if you want to phreak LCD's . You should be worry more about the RF side of things, and figuring out the spread spectrum clock signal so you can pick up the signal. Top if off background noise is going to be bitch when it comes to LCD. Old CRT monitors are way easier to phreak those thing throw off EM radiation like nobody business.
====
The noise coming from the LCD monitor is appearing on FRS channels:

- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_Radio_Service [wikipedia.org]

It continues for several minutes before it jumps to another channel then after a few minutes jumps back to the original channel. One of my concerns is the ability for others to pluck this noise from the air (Van Eck/TEMPEST) and monitor my activity, or possibly use an attack against the computer somehow. A recent UN report mentioned a high tech method(s):

* U.N. report reveals secret law enforcement techniques

"Point 201: Mentions a new covert communications technique using software defined high frequency radio receivers routed through the computer creating no logs, using no central server and extremely difficult for law enforcement to intercept."

- http://www.unodc.org/documents/frontpage/Use_of_Internet_for_Terrorist_Purposes.pdf [unodc.org]
- http://www.hacker10.com/other-computing/u-n-report-reveals-secret-law-enforcement-techniques/ [hacker10.com]

In addition, I don't want my LCD monitor constantly sending monitor and/or system activity to a FRS channel(s) for others to hear. I choose wired over wireless for a reason, and there shouldn't be any noise coming from my LCD monitor and appearing over FRS, unless there is a bug or problem with the monitor. All of my
CRT systems are silent on FRS.

When I position the radio near different components, the power supply doesn't emit any noise on FRS, but it could be a problem, I don't know, I'll move to that once I resolve the LCD monitor problem, unless the PSU is the problem and not the monitor.

I may take apart the LCD monitor, I'm looking for a good list of what I'll find if I do.

I peered inside the vents on the top/back left hand side with a strong flashlight and came across a strange piece of silver tape inside, here's how I describe it:

OOGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG__

OO = a small thin black material coming out from underneath the silver piece of tape
GG = the strip of silver tape
__ = the bottom right hand portion of the silver tape is raised enough to allow a pinky finger entry

The silver tape/material/opening under tape is on the top left corner inside the monitor. The rest of the length and area inside that I can see contain no tape or black material. I've seen photos of planted bugs in people's living spaces and most if not all of the invasive ones are wrapped/covered in silver foil. I've found no other reason for that strip and material to be there, but what do I know.
=====
In addition, my CDROM drive light blinks once every second, sometimes with a second or 1/2 second in between, and I found this:

http://catless.ncl.ac.uk/Risks/19.60.html#subj9 [ncl.ac.uk]

"I'd worry about a Tempest virus that polled a personal computer's
CD-ROM drive to pulse the motor as a signalling method:

* Modern high-speed CD-ROM drive motors are both acoustically and
electrically noisy, giving you two attack methods for the price of one;

* Laptop computer users without CRTs, and the PC users that can afford
large LCD screens instead of CRTs, often have CD-ROM drives;

* Users are getting quite used to sitting patiently while their
CD-ROM drives grind away for no visibly obvious reason (but
that's quite enough about the widespread installs of software from
Microsoft CD-ROMs that prompted Kuhn's investigation in the first place.)"
==
"I'd worry about a Tempest virus that polled a personal computer' personal computer' CD-ROM drive"

Yes and the hard drive and in some PC's the cooling fans as well are under CPU control.

You can also do it with PC's where the CPU does not control the fan, but the hardware has a simple thermal sensor to control it's speed. You do this by simply having a process that uses power expensive instructions in tight loops, thus raising the CPU temprature (it's one of the side channels I was considering a long time ago when thinking about how the temp inside the case changed various things including the CPU clock XTAL frequency).

The change in sound side channel is one of the first identified problems with Quantum Key Distribution. Basicaly the bod who came up with the idea whilst first testing the idea could tell the state of "Alice's polarizer" simply by the amount of noise it made...

The CD-ROM motor idea I'd heard befor but could not remember where till I followed your link.

Dr Lloyd Wood has worked with the UK's Surrey Uni, the European Space Agency and Americas NASA and one or two other places as part of his work for Surrey Satellite Technology Ltd. He has been involved with CLEO (Cisco router in Low Earth Orbit) and other work on what's being called "The Space Internet".

Of interest is his work on Delay and Disruption Tolerant Networks (DTN). It's not been said "publicaly" as far as I'm aware but the work has aspects that are important to anonymity networks such as TOR.

You can read more on Dr Wood's DTN work etc at,

http://personal.ee.surrey.ac.uk/Personal/L.Wood/dtn/ [surrey.ac.uk]

The UK occupies an odd position in the "Space Race" it is the only nation who having put a satellite into space then stopped further space rocket development (the Black Knight launch platform was considerably safer and more economic than the then US and CCCP systems). The UK has however continued in the Space Game and is perhaps the leading designers of payloads for scientific and industrial satellites (it probably is on military sats as well but nobody who knows for sure is telling ;-)

Clive Robinson
http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2012/12/interesting_win.html#c1049823 [schneier.com]
===
I don't think there should be anymore blinking if you remove the CD/DVD inside.
If it keeps blinking, find out which process uses it.
Anyway, you can disable it when you're not using it, if it's bothering you.

And shield your monitor.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_shielding [wikipedia.org]
===
"I don't think there should be anymore blinking if you remove the CD/DVD inside."

Does Tails support this at boot?

If not, is there a Linux LiveCD which allows this and does not give you root access at boot?

I've looked at several different distributions which allow you to boot into RAM and remove the CD, but they all give you root and that's a very insecure environment to run TBB in!

"If it keeps blinking, find out which process uses it."

It doesn't blink on the several distros which boot into RAM, but I don't want to run Tor as root or reconfigure the permissions/PAM/etc. just to use TBB. As above, with Tails and many LiveCDs which don't boot into RAM, 99% of them have this blinking light issue. The actual INSTALLS I've done to HDD experience constant light activity too, even more so, without anything to explain them.

For Linux, I've ran rkhunter, chkrootkit, tiger, and other tools and nothing malicious is found. Without a deep binary analysis I don't know what else I could do.

For Windows, I use a few programs in the SysInternals Suite and they display strange usage on the system and reference programs which cannot be found with a search on the system, references to impersonation, spoofing, and more. I've ran almost every N.American scanner on the Windows systems, including command line only rootkit detectors and I've seen some strange 'strings' of binaries mentioned, but have no idea on how to clean the system.

I prefer to run LiveCDs because all installations, Windows and Linux, contain unexplainable frenzies of blinking lights, far worse than the blink every second on most LiveCDs. I'm wondering if this is firmware malware on my NIC or the CDROM itself. This has existed for years and never goes away, no matter what system I use, this strange baggage seems to re-infect everything.

"Anyway, you can disable it when you're not using it, if it's bothering you."

Disable what?

"And shield your monitor."

Thanks. I'm investigating and most of the guides require specific addons to the computer's cabling system. Most of the guides appear incomplete, or are in another language other than English.

Any comments on the Tempest/blinking light possibility?

Any comments on why it's spewing out noise to FRS stations and freq hopping?
===
More comments from elsewhere:

@kb2vxa:

"You're making a mountain out of a mole hill."

I respect your opinion and I don't wish to argue against it, but please look at it from the way I and some others have. I want to eliminate the noise created by the LCD monitor. If this was such a common experience, I would expect at least one of the dozens of other electronic equipment to generate some noise, however faint, on FRS - but they do not.

"You are under the wrong impression that somehow RF hash from the back light can somehow carry data. A liquid crystal display (LCD) does not generate its own light like a CRT or plasma screen and requires a light source to make the display visible. Even those that do cannot transmit computer data being none reaches the monitor."

The LCD is connected to a tower, which other devices connect to. Under testing I've heard the CDROM drive accessing data noises within the FRS channels, along with mouse movements and keyboard activity, along with other noises. When I disable the LCD monitor, all of these disturbances vanish. This means the weakness is in the monitor, and my tower is well shielded or shielded enough so as not to generate any noise in radios I can notice. The reference I made to the strange tape and material within the back side of the LCD monitor at the top could be a sign of some type of antenna or device for amping.

"Their FRS radios will only hear what yours does, RF hash, no data whatsoever THAT IS if one is standing outside your house tapping the radio and scratching his head wondering what's the matter with his radio. You and only you know what it is and where it's coming from."

And what of experienced and curious sysadmins? Rogue crackers? Bored HAMs?
Are there any remote radio injection attacks against systems? This is something I'll research later, as I do believe it was mentioned in at least one whitepaper on side channel attacks.

"Thanks for the chuckles, if the report reveals secrets it would not be published but sent by secret courier to the KGB in Moscow."

I'm not aware of any secrets revealed within the document. But it did raise an interesting point without exposing the method(s) delivered to us from an interesting party. This wasn't just some random article written by some anonymous, disturbed fellow and posted to a pastebin or conspiracy minded blog or forum. And one cannot deny the dozens of TEMPEST attacks available today.

"So... all this and no word on moving the radio farther from the monitor. Why don't you try talking somewhere besides in front of the computer if it bothers you so much?"

Thank you for considering conversation as my reason for posting this, but it is not. I would not choose a noisy channel to talk on. Clear conversation is not the point of this thread. I desire the elimination of this garbage coming from the LCD monitor. I don't care if no one in the world can pick up on it and hear it, I would like to properly resolve it and not ignore it.

One can also dredge up the subject of EMF on health, too, but I have not experienced any disturbance of health from exposure to this noise and most people would argue any possible EMF effects on health to be one of one's over active imagination and not real world application.

[-]

A continued discussion was posted elsewhere, this may be useful in the voyage to remove this "noise":

[-]

In addition, my CDROM drive light blinks once every second, sometimes with a second or 1/2 second in between, and I found this:

[-]

http://catless.ncl.ac.uk/Risks/19.60.html#subj9 [ncl.ac.uk]

"I'd worry about a Tempest virus that polled a personal computer's
CD-ROM drive to pulse the motor as a signalling method:

* Modern high-speed CD-ROM drive motors are both acoustically and
electrically noisy, giving you two attack methods for the price of one;

* Laptop computer users without CRTs, and the PC users that can afford
large LCD screens instead of CRTs, often have CD-ROM drives;

* Users are getting quite used to sitting patiently while their
CD-ROM drives grind away for no visibly obvious reason (but
that's quite enough about the widespread installs of software from
Microsoft CD-ROMs that prompted Kuhn's investigation in the first place.)"

[-]

Any comments on the silver tape and material inside the back of the LCD? ...Disconnection of the LED CDROM and HDD lights could be something I should do to relieve one possible issue.

[-]

Some articles with examples:

"If everything is just right, you can pick up signals from some distance. "I was able to eavesdrop certain laptops through three walls," says Kuhn. "At the CEBIT conference, in 2006, I was able to see the Powerpoint presentation from a stand 25 metres away."

uhn also mentioned that one laptop was vulnerable because it had metal hinges that carried the signal of the display cable. I asked if you could alter a device to make it easier to spy on. "There are a lot of innocuous modifications you can make to maximise the chance of getting a good signal," he told me. For example, adding small pieces of wire or cable to a display could make a big difference.

As for defending against this kind of attack, Kuhn says using well-shielded cables, certain combinations of colours and making everything a little fuzzy all work."

http://www.newscientist.com/blog/technology/2007/04/seeing-through-walls.html [newscientist.com]

=!===!=
TO EASILY VIEW THE PDF files below:
=!===!=

Online viewer for PDF, PostScript and Word:

"This is an online viewer, with which you can view PDF and PostScript files as browsable images and Word documents as web pages. Given a URL on the net or a file on your computer, the viewer will try to retrieve the document, convert it and show it to you. No plugin software is required."

http://view.samurajdata.se/ [samurajdata.se]

The viewer software is open source, licensed under the GNU Public License.
=!====!=

Electromagnetic eavesdropping risks of flat-panel displays
http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~mgk25/pet2004-fpd.pdf [cam.ac.uk]

=

Eavesdropping attacks on computer displays
http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~mgk25/iss2006-tempest.pdf [cam.ac.uk]

=

Compromising emanations: eavesdropping risks of computer displays
http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/techreports/UCAM-CL-TR-577.html [cam.ac.uk]
http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/techreports/UCAM-CL-TR-577.pdf [cam.ac.uk]

=

Compromising emanations of LCD TV sets
http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~mgk25/emc2011-tv.pdf [cam.ac.uk]

=

"Q: Can I use filtered fonts also on flat-panel displays

My experience so far has been that with LCDs, the video cable is the most significant source of radiated information leakage. Where an analogue video cable (with 15-pin VGA connector) is used, low-pass filtered fonts have the same benefits as with CRTs. Where a purely digital video cable is used (DVI-D, laptop-internal displays with FPD/LVDS links, etc.) only the last step, namely randomizing the least-significant bits, should be implemented.

Where the video signal is entirely encoded in digital form, the low-pass filtered step will not have the desired effect. In fact, it can actually increase the differences between the signal generated by individual characters, and thereby make automatic radio character recognition more reliable."

http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~mgk25/emsec/softtempest-faq.html [cam.ac.uk]

=

Remotely Eavesdropping on Keyboards (and read the comments!)

"The researchers from the Security and Cryptography Laboratory at Ecole Polytechnique Federale de Lausanne are able to capture keystrokes by monitoring the electromagnetic radiation of PS/2, universal serial bus, or laptop keyboards. They've outline four separate attack methods, some that work at a distance of as much as 65 feet from the target.

In one video demonstration, researchers Martin Vuagnoux and Sylvain Pasini sniff out the the keystrokes typed into a standard keyboard using a large antenna that's about 20 to 30 feet away in an adjacent room."

https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2008/10/remotely_eavesd.html [schneier.com]

=

Video eavesdropping demo at CeBIT 2006
http://www.lightbluetouchpaper.org/2006/03/09/video-eavesdropping-demo-at-cebit-2006/ [lightbluetouchpaper.org]

=

Optical Emission Security â" Frequently Asked Questions

"Q: What about LEDs?

For devices with RS-232 serial ports, it is customary to provide a status indicator LED for some of the signal lines (in particular transmit data and receive data). Often, these LEDs are directly connected to the line via just a resistor. As a result, anyone with a line of sight to the LED, some optics and a simple photosensor can see the data stream. Joe Loughry and David A. Umphress have recently announced a detailed study (submitted to ACM Transactions on Information and System Security) in which they tested 39 communications devices with 164 LED indicators, and on 14 of the tested devices they found serial port data in the LED light. Based on their findings, it seems reasonable to conclude that LEDs for RS-232 ports are most likely carrying the data signal today, whereas LEDs on high-speed data links (LANs, harddisk) do not. Even these LEDs are still available as a covert channel for malicious software that actively tries to transmit data optically.

I expect that this paper will cause a number of modem manufacturers to add a little pulse stretcher (monostable multivibrator) to the LEDs in the next chip set revision, and that at some facilities with particular security concerns, the relevant LEDs will be removed or covered with black tape.

The data traffic on LEDs is not a periodic signal, and therefore, unlike with video signals, periodic averaging cannot be used to improve the signal-to-noise ratio. The shot-noise limit estimation technique that I used to estimate the CRT eavesdropping risk can even more easily (because no deconvolution is needed) also be applied to serial port indicators and allows us to estimate a lower bound for the bit-error rate at a given distance. I have performed a few example calculations and concluded that with a direct line of sight, and a 100 kbit/s signal (typical for an external telephone modem), at 500 m distance it should be no problem to acquire a reliable signal (one wrong bit every 10 megabit), whereas for indirect reflection from the wall of a dark room, a somewhat more noisy signal (at least one wrong bit per 10 kilobit) can be expected to be receivable in a few tens of meters distance.

http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~mgk25/emsec/optical-faq.html [cam.ac.uk]

=

Ancient Story on Slashdot: Coming to a Desktop near you: Tempest Capabilities

"New Scientist has an interesting article about a new toy we will all want. It's a card that plugs in one of your PCI slots and allows you to scan the EMF spectrum and read your neighbours terminal. In about 5 years you might be able to get one for just under £1000. (Modern Tempest Hardware costs about £30000) "

http://www.yro.slashdot.org/story/99/11/08/093250/coming-to-a-desktop-near-you-tempest-capabilities [slashdot.org]

=

"Any unshielded electrical device with a variable current (including LCDs) will give out EMF radiation. It's the nature of the beast.

For that matter, light is EMF radiation, so unless you have your LCD in a coal-mine, it's reflecting EMF all the time it's switched on.

Then, there's the fact that screen monitoring isn't the only monitoring you can do. I used to use a radio, tuned into the bus for the PET, as a sound card. Worked surprisingly well, for all that very clunky metal shielding. What's to stop a much higher-quality receiver from seeing the data, in an unshielded box, being sent TO the LCD, or to any other device on the machine?

It's a mistake to assume that Tempest technology is single-function and that that single-function only works in a single situation."

http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=2333&cid=1553178 [slashdot.org]

=

800Mbps Wireless Network Made With LED Light Bulbs
http://science.slashdot.org/story/11/08/02/1322201/800Mbps-Wireless-Network-Made-With-LED-Light-Bulbs [slashdot.org]

=

There are a lot of other files, many in PPT format, which can be found easily on this subject of LCD monitor (and other computing devices) TEMPEST sniffing.

===

Sources for this discussion:

- http://clsvtzwzdgzkjda7.onion/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=10919 [clsvtzwzdgzkjda7.onion]

    And here, but they deleted my most recent post and told me to go away (more cointelpro agents)
    The following link will probably be deleted in the near future:
- http://forums.radioreference.com/computer/255488-lcd-monitor-broadcasts-noise-radio-why.html [radioreference.com] .onion link above requires a running Tor client session in order to view. (https://www.torproject.org)

This on-going discussion backed up to Pastebin(s) in order to retain it as an artifact. Many of these
types of discussions are REMOVED from the net because of the nature of the discussion (TEMPEST).

I am stunned! (1)

140Mandak262Jamuna (970587) | about a year ago | (#42380807)

I am really stunned to see Steve Jobs choosing 40 foot tall Windows for his yacht.

Earth? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a year ago | (#42380823)

$137,500,000 of "minimalistic aesthetic".

What planet are you on?

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