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Steve Jobs Says PC Folks' World Is Slipping Away

kdawson posted more than 4 years ago | from the freedom-from-porn dept.

Apple 1067

theodp writes "Provoked by an iPad ad promising a 'revolution,' Valleywag's Ryan Tate fired off a late-night missive to Steve Jobs. Jobs responded, and the two engaged in an after-midnight e-mail debate over lockdown, Cocoa vs. Flash, battery life, and whether 'freedom from porn' is a bug or a feature. 'The times they are a changin',' quipped Jobs, 'and some traditional PC folks feel like their world is slipping away. It is.' Tate was unswayed by the Apple CEO's reality distortion field, but did come away impressed by Jobs' willingness to spar one-on-one over his beliefs — at two in the morning on a weekend."

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Sounds to me... (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#32223522)

Sounds to me like Jobs just got trolled hard. 10/10 for Ryan Tate.

Re:Sounds to me... (4, Funny)

tomhudson (43916) | more than 4 years ago | (#32223612)

> "Sounds to me like Jobs just got trolled hard."

"There's an App for that ..."

"Your App has been rejected by the Apple Store. Because we said so!"

Re:Sounds to me... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#32223808)

Is it cause the app has an external dependency on jQuery?

Did you ever decide to act like an honest man and own up to being wrong about that yesterday, Tom?

Re:Sounds to me... (2, Insightful)

Peach Rings (1782482) | more than 4 years ago | (#32223628)

Sounds to me like Steve Jobs answered some random person's critical comments immediately on a Friday night. Obviously everything that comes out of his mouth is garbage, but damn that is someone who cares about their product.

FIRST! (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#32223532)

FIRST!

Insomnia and stupidity (-1, Flamebait)

gavron (1300111) | more than 4 years ago | (#32223534)

Lots of don't sleep.

Poor Steve.

Jobs' empire is falling down around him.

All hail FOSS, Linux, Android, and no more closed-source.

E

Re:Insomnia and stupidity (2, Insightful)

jcr (53032) | more than 4 years ago | (#32223656)

Jobs' empire is falling down around him.

AAPL: $253.82 Market Cap: $230.96B P/E: 21.54.

How can I get an empire to fall down around me like that?

-jcr

Re:Insomnia and stupidity (4, Insightful)

gavron (1300111) | more than 4 years ago | (#32223710)

Hari Seldon wrote all about it.

E

Re:Insomnia and stupidity (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#32223784)

+1 for quotating Asimovs Fundation ^^

o hai jcr (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#32223870)

maybe you should take Jobs' cock out of your ass sometime, jcr.

-cjc

Freedom from porn. (5, Funny)

kentrel (526003) | more than 4 years ago | (#32223554)

Sorry Steve. The PC had me at "Hello boys"

Re:Freedom from porn. (2, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#32223764)

Yeah unwashed hippies like Stallman and compulsive narcissists like Job envision their magical sex free computing utopias (one being software anarchy, the other being software slavery) all they like, but we real humans will prefer the platform with boobs.

Steve held his own... (5, Insightful)

pdboddy (620164) | more than 4 years ago | (#32223574)

Hehe, I will say that in the last image of the email exchange, Steve Jobs really zinged Tate.

Re:Steve held his own... (2, Insightful)

Presto Vivace (882157) | more than 4 years ago | (#32223624)

How many CEO's would come out looking half so well in an email flame war?

Re:Steve held his own... (2, Funny)

Loadmaster (720754) | more than 4 years ago | (#32223696)

Derek Smart. Need you ask?

Re:Steve held his own... (1, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#32223638)

yeah, he really zinged him with a charge that's been levied against every critic and reporter since the first critic peed on a cave painting.

Re:Steve held his own... (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#32223642)

Steve Jobs still seems like a dick.

Steve: "So what if I come off as dickish? What've *you* done to change the world that gives you license to criticize me?"

Following people are allowed to criticize Jobs: Nobody.

Among people you might think would be allowed to criticize Jobs, here's why they can't:

Bill Gates: Windows is useless. The PC is over.
Linus Torvald: Haha. Exactly what's your market share again?
God: Who is this God? Even if he existed, what has he developed for computers? Nothing? Moving on.
Anyone not computer related: YOUR ACHIEVEMENTS ARE BUNK.

Re:Steve held his own... (3, Insightful)

popeyethesailor (325796) | more than 4 years ago | (#32223950)

I thought it was a pretty cheap shot. One has to be a prolific achiever now to even criticize Steve Jobs? Sorry that doesn't sound so smart to me. I could've imagined that coming from Steve Ballmer, but I imagined Jobs to be better.

I'm disappointed in this industry in general. With the advent of internet and open communications/standards, I thought the era of odious restrictions placed by software companies would go away. Looks like nothing will change; only the players change. We need more Stallmen.

haha (5, Interesting)

timmarhy (659436) | more than 4 years ago | (#32223584)

steve gets a little market share and it goes to his head.

here in the real world, he hasn't hardly made a dent in personal computing. I'd admit he has cornered the wanky new toy gadget market, that's about it.

Re:haha (1, Insightful)

timmarhy (659436) | more than 4 years ago | (#32223630)

i love that everything i post is a -1, no matter what.

Re:haha (5, Insightful)

OrangeCatholic (1495411) | more than 4 years ago | (#32223640)

What Jobs is saying, is that he's finally found a way to reach the masses of computer noobs that Mac has been aiming for all along. The problem with the original Macs is that they required someone to actually use a computer.

Now that he's turned computers into toys, he can finally get "Grandma." But this doesn't really change anything in the computer world.

It's something to brag about for sure, on a marketing level. On a features level, he succeeds only by not having them. Kind of like how McDonald's succeeds by not having a steak dinner.

Re:haha (4, Interesting)

peragrin (659227) | more than 4 years ago | (#32223680)

your quite right, but the people have been eating at MSFT's burger king for two decades. the fact that they are now willing to try something different, is a sign all to it's own.

Re:haha (2, Insightful)

timmarhy (659436) | more than 4 years ago | (#32223798)

are they willing though? the iphone and ipad don't go even close to replacing a PC, i'd say he's managed to get them to expand their gadget collection, not replace a real PC

Re:haha (3, Funny)

SoupIsGoodFood_42 (521389) | more than 4 years ago | (#32223720)

More like succeeding by not having a hand crank on the front of your car. Most people don't miss that.

Re:haha (1)

Antisyzygy (1495469) | more than 4 years ago | (#32223874)

Not quite. PC's are way more customizable, and by that I mean components, OS, ect. A better comparison is that a PC is a truck, a drag racer or a dune buggy and a Mac is a BMW, or a Mercedes. Sure you can pick upgrades for the BMW to make it more luxurious or faster, but if you want to scale a massive sand hill, power down a strip of road, or haul a large load you need to know how to select the best parts for the job and how to use your equipment. Mac's severely lack in the customization department compared to PC's. The Mac OS is excellent, but by making it idiot proof and controlled you piss off most fluent PC users because they are do-it-yourselfers and like to choose when, where and how things get done.

Re:haha (5, Insightful)

asdfghjklqwertyuiop (649296) | more than 4 years ago | (#32223930)

And an openable hood.

Re:haha (4, Insightful)

Draek (916851) | more than 4 years ago | (#32223932)

No, not really, the steak dinner is still the more appropiate analogy.

Having hand cranks wouldn't serve much (if any) purpose on a modern car, so truly most people *wouldn't* want it. Steak dinners, however, are actually desireable and there's a sizeable market for them still. In the case of PCs they're the corporate world, which may love to lock down their employees' computers but despise having them locked from *them*, and for the variety of tasks corporations need computers for, an Apple toy (sorry, "appliance") will never be enough.

But Jobs' and the Apple fans' dismissal of the business sector isn't surprising. That's why Microsoft considers Linux, and not Apple, its biggest threat: because Apple's ideology of dividing the world between 'geeks' and 'consumers', refusing to even acknowledge the existence of the corporate market, is what ultimately locks them from being more than an 'also ran' first to IBM and now to Microsoft.

Wake me up when the corporate world abandons regular computers in favor of Apple's toys. But not before.

Re:haha (2, Insightful)

SanityInAnarchy (655584) | more than 4 years ago | (#32223946)

Many people do enjoy manual transmissions, though I don't, so I see your point.

However, the largest component missing is an option other than the App Store. This move is akin to selling a car with the hood welded shut. While some higher-end models might get away with it (Rolls-Royce, BMW, etc), it's still something I'd be very wary of buying. Modern BMWs are to the point where you physically can't even get an oil change, let alone change the radio, without going to a BMW dealer (at BMW prices) -- you're actually locked out of your own engine.

I don't have a problem with it being a simple device for simple people. I do have a problem with the fact that it's actually a federal crime to tinker with it, let alone try to sell apps or other accessories for it without Apple's stamp of approval.

Re:haha (5, Insightful)

michaelhood (667393) | more than 4 years ago | (#32223800)

What Jobs is saying, is that he's finally found a way to reach the masses of computer noobs that Mac has been aiming for all along. The problem with the original Macs is that they required someone to actually use a computer.

Now that he's turned computers into toys, he can finally get "Grandma." But this doesn't really change anything in the computer world.

It's something to brag about for sure, on a marketing level. On a features level, he succeeds only by not having them. Kind of like how McDonald's succeeds by not having a steak dinner.

I agree.. and yet you can't even boot, for the first time, a 3G iPad without connecting it to a computer with iTunes. WTH were they thinking with that?

Re:haha (1)

am 2k (217885) | more than 4 years ago | (#32223824)

Agreed, though they do that for you when you buy in an Apple store.

Re:haha (2, Insightful)

flibbidyfloo (451053) | more than 4 years ago | (#32223818)

Steve probably wouldn't like the comparison of Apple to Mickey D's, and he wouldn't ever admit that Windows is a steak dinner compared to anything by Apple. But I think the comparison is very astute. If McDonald's tried to add a steak dinner and a wine list to their menu, it would go over like a lead balloon. They succeed by doing a very small set of things well (matter of opinion, I know). But no one wants to live in a world where McDonald's is the only restaurant... Not even the CEO of McD's.

From: "PC Folk" (1, Flamebait)

s0litaire (1205168) | more than 4 years ago | (#32223596)

to: "Steve Jobs"

Your "Reality Distortion Field ©®" is failing and is slipping away.

*Note* Side effects of the failure may cause "Liver damage"...

Cordially Yours,

Reality...

Re:From: "PC Folk" (1, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#32223610)

*Note* Side effects of the failure may cause "Liver damage"...

-1, Major asshole

Re:From: "PC Folk" (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#32223622)

(-1)^2, Wooosh...

Re:From: "PC Folk" (3, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#32223702)

Yeah, -1 squared is 1. So, is woosh an uprate now, or are you just bad at math?

Sent from my iPad.

Re:From: "PC Folk" (2, Funny)

mister_playboy (1474163) | more than 4 years ago | (#32223912)

sqrt(-1), Whoosh

Re:From: "PC Folk" (0, Offtopic)

jcr (53032) | more than 4 years ago | (#32223632)

Reality...

Want some reality? Take a look at Apple's financial reports for the last couple of years. They're the second-most valuable company on the S&P 500, and their P/E ratio is pretty modest at 21 and a half.

-jcr

Re:From: "PC Folk" (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#32223736)

Didn't we despise Microsoft because of how successful they were?

Or maybe I'm wrong.

ALSO!

PC stands for Personal Computer, exactly how is a Mac not a personal computer? Is he talking about smartphones? Maybe the ipad which is really just an even more portable computer?

Re:From: "PC Folk" (4, Insightful)

jcr (53032) | more than 4 years ago | (#32223756)

Didn't we despise Microsoft because of how successful they were?

Maybe you did, but my objection to them was for the multiple crimes they committed, and the dismal quality of their products.

-jcr

Re:From: "PC Folk" (1)

Diantre (1791892) | more than 4 years ago | (#32223802)

Portable Approved Media (TM) player.

Re:From: "PC Folk" (2, Insightful)

salesgeek (263995) | more than 4 years ago | (#32223748)

Past performance does not indicate future results.

Re:From: "PC Folk" (2, Informative)

maxume (22995) | more than 4 years ago | (#32223762)

I'm somewhat skeptical that they can continue to execute, but doing the math, a couple of million iPads is only about 5% of their revenues (likely less, it takes aggressive price estimates to get that high), so who knows.

It also depends on how fast their hardware markets cycles, I'm not sure that the majority of people buying iPads today are going to be ready to buy a new one in 2 or 3 years (but maybe people really are that spendy; I'm typing this on a 4 year old laptop that replaced a 1997 desktop...).

Re:From: "PC Folk" (1)

jcr (53032) | more than 4 years ago | (#32223806)

I'm somewhat skeptical that they can continue to execute,

The biggest operational problem I've seen on Apple's part since I went to work there back in '02 was underestimating demand for new products, and of all the problems a business can have, back-orders are one of the best.

-jcr

I rarely read ValleyWag. (-1, Offtopic)

jcr (53032) | more than 4 years ago | (#32223598)

Actually, I hadn't realized it was a Gawker site. I won't be giving them any more page hits.

As much as I enjoyed watching SJ take that clown to school, it probably isn't a good idea for him to do so since there's likely to be litigation against his employer in the near future.

-jcr

Re:I rarely read ValleyWag. (4, Insightful)

maccodemonkey (1438585) | more than 4 years ago | (#32223676)

"As much as I enjoyed watching SJ take that clown to school, it probably isn't a good idea for him to do so since there's likely to be litigation against his employer in the near future."

Jobs was doing well until he brought up porn.

Porn has been published in every medium known to man since the beginning of time. We have literally found porn cave paintings. Porn is nothing new, and will continue to exist. And as long as it's existed, kids have always gotten their hands on it.

Steve acting as if it was some new fad that Apple is attempting to stem is disturbing. I'm not saying they need to start putting porn in the app store, but c'mon, Apple stopping sideloading so they can keep the iPhone free of porn? There are already ways of getting porn on the device (web), and kids can very easily jailbreak the thing to load on whatever they want. Apple is making a dumb stand on principle.

He told the Gawker editor that he'd understand if he had kids. One has to wonder if this is a result of a bad experience Steve has personally had with his family, and not so much a business decision.

Re:I rarely read ValleyWag. (1, Insightful)

jcr (53032) | more than 4 years ago | (#32223750)

Well, sure there's going to be porn on the iPhone too, but Apple's not going to be the company that delivers it. Frankly, I can see where he's coming from on that, because the last thing a company of Apple's size needs is a pretext for puritans and politicians to bash them over.

-jcr

Re:I rarely read ValleyWag. (3, Interesting)

maccodemonkey (1438585) | more than 4 years ago | (#32223906)

"Well, sure there's going to be porn on the iPhone too, but Apple's not going to be the company that delivers it."

There is a difference between Apple delivering porn, and Apple attempting to stop everyone else from delivering it.

I've worked for an organization that buys Apple products in several thousand batches (they're the biggest spenders on Apple products in education in their respective state. And the state in question is a west coast state that is very big on technology.) The major holdup with the iPad has been sideloading. It's very difficult for an organization to manage iPads en masse when they can't even manage the deployed software easily. The lack of sideloading was first blamed on mobile applications threatening cell networks (which everyone knows is a load of bull), and then more recently, porn.

The organization in question currently runs off Macbooks. The kids have loaded porn on the Macbooks. Before that we had desktop machines. The kids loaded porn on those. Hell, I remember before we had computers and the kids brought porno magazines to school. Yes, we were concerned about porn, but it was nothing new.

While Apple restricting the device makes it easier for us to enforce discipline, it also cuts us off at the knees and almost makes the iPad a non starter in enterprise. Yes, Apple does offer a private app store for your organization. But that doesn't really mean much when we need a way of loading software onto thousands of devices at once.

Apple is supposedly sending engineers to my old employer to look at these issues. I hope it results in an improvement to the manageability of iPhone OS.

Re:I rarely read ValleyWag. (1)

mister_playboy (1474163) | more than 4 years ago | (#32223964)

because the last thing a company of Apple's size needs is a pretext for puritans and politicians to bash them over.

He's chosen instead a stance that everyone else can bash Apple over. Steve Jobs is supposed to be peddling coolness, but his attitude on porn comes off as distinctly old-fashioned and out-of-touch.

Re:I rarely read ValleyWag. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#32223872)

He told the Gawker editor that he'd understand if he had kids. One has to wonder if this is a result of a bad experience Steve has personally had with his family, and not so much a business decision.

Hand lotion.
Tissue.
the Woz.
Naked.

Get the picture?

Steve did. And he cannot get it out of his head (even though his liver tried its best, bless its little heart.)

Try this one... (5, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#32223602)

Go out, buy nothing but an iPad and tell me how good your computing experience is 12 months from now.

No cheating. Not a single transaction on a single machine that isn't an iPad.

I dare you.

Re:Try this one... (0)

SoupIsGoodFood_42 (521389) | more than 4 years ago | (#32223700)

When Apple eventually makes it so that all the iPad needs is a connection to MobileMe, there sure will be a lot of people who will use the iPad as their only computer.

Re:Try this one... (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#32223738)

Yeah and this is the year of Linux on the desktop and the big come back of Amiga and soon the internet will be free for all people across the world... I'll keep computing, *you* keep waiting.

Re:Try this one... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#32223792)

I'm doing both.

Re:Try this one... (4, Insightful)

Darkness404 (1287218) | more than 4 years ago | (#32223786)

Ok, tell me this though.

How are you going to get the thing to print? Not everyone has a wi-fi enabled printer, myself I still make do with a parallel port printer. Do I print things? Not often, but occasionally I need to for work and the like.

Are you going to enjoy being locked out of the web? There are tons of flash games out there, tons of flash movies, etc. What benefit are you getting to accept it?

Are you going to be broke paying for applications? It is entirely reasonable to not have to pay for a single application without pirating on a PC/Linux. Almost every pay program has a free alternative on PC/Linux. On the other hand, due to Apple's draconian policies, a paid app may be the only app "approved" to do something.

What about storage? The average person is going to have GB worth of movies, music, documents, photos, etc. Flash memory is -expensive-. Also, how are you going to transfer things to the iPad? And backups? What about durability? If a component of a PC fails, its easily replaced. Nothing is truly "fatal" if you have the money.

The iPad makes a passable secondary "computer" but as a primary computer? I'm better off with my 7 inch EEE 701...

Re:Try this one... (1, Insightful)

dangitman (862676) | more than 4 years ago | (#32223860)

How are you going to get the thing to print?

People still print things?

Re:Try this one... (1)

Darkness404 (1287218) | more than 4 years ago | (#32223956)

Not all professors know how to use E-mail. Many still insist on printing documents because they enjoy putting red ink all over it. Many bosses also prefer to have a paper copy. Myself? I have not printed a single thing in the last decade that hasn't been required by someone else to be printed. But, I have printed a lot because there are still a lot of people who insist on paper copies.

Re:Try this one... (2, Insightful)

am 2k (217885) | more than 4 years ago | (#32223840)

Kinda hard to get any money then, without ATMs? Or driving a car (same goes for public transportation). Or getting up on time without your radio clock.

Re:Try this one... (1, Troll)

Antisyzygy (1495469) | more than 4 years ago | (#32223886)

Google'c Chrome pads will wipe the floor with the Ipad.

PC world slippers (1)

smoothnorman (1670542) | more than 4 years ago | (#32223616)

I wonder what defines the "PC World"? Is StevieJ sawing away on the limb to MacBooks as well, or is does he somehow distinguish between the concept of a laptop and a laptop? ...an iPad would seem to be a Personal Computer even if subject to corporate bondage.

Jobs Bot Beta v0.26 (4, Funny)

dangitman (862676) | more than 4 years ago | (#32223620)

What Tate failed to realize that he was actually arguing with a bot, and Apple decided to start testing their new artificially intelligent overlord outside the lab. He then woke up in the morning with a stolen iPhone prototype in his pocket, and a dead hooker in his bed.

Re:Jobs Bot Beta v0.26 (1)

peragrin (659227) | more than 4 years ago | (#32223668)

well a jobs bot would explain how apple plans to survive in a world without Jobs.

and thus the real skynet is born.

Re:Jobs Bot Beta v0.26 (1)

Hurricane78 (562437) | more than 4 years ago | (#32223754)

Still a more realistic simulation of a human than the actual Steve Jobs. ;)

Par for the course (4, Insightful)

alvinrod (889928) | more than 4 years ago | (#32223636)

Doesn't really surprise me at all. Steve wants a controlled user experience and geeks want the freedom to do whatever the hell they want to do. The two clash. Steve is right though, we don't have to buy his devices, so don't. It's that easy. I do like Steve's quote at the end of the exchange, however. For as many people bitch about Apple here, there aren't enough that actually go out and do something about it. Even if you're not a developer, you can still vote with your wallet. If you want to drive FOSS to greater prominence, either help by using it or help by creating and fixing it. Complaining about Apple on the internet won't do much. Creating or helping to improve FOSS is only real way to stick it to Apple.

Re:Par for the course (2, Insightful)

symbolic (11752) | more than 4 years ago | (#32223776)

For as many people bitch about Apple here, there aren't enough that actually go out and do something about it.

Well, if you're not going to buy an iPad, you won't be going anywhere to do it. So yeah, in order to do something, you really won't be doing anything.

Re:Par for the course (1, Insightful)

Antisyzygy (1495469) | more than 4 years ago | (#32223900)

I will never buy an Apple product. I dont even own an iPod. A Sansa clip is good enough for me.

26% of the planet connected (2, Interesting)

hhawk (26580) | more than 4 years ago | (#32223646)

The computer, consumer electronic market and the gaming console market are like quick sand; its hard to say who is really winning or losing.

26% of the Planet is online.. but the vast majority of them are connecting with Mobile Devices. The rest are connecting with some type of Intel/AMD based device and some with other processors like ARM but very few of them (I don't have the exact percent) are running an Apple OS.

Thus in that context Apple while is winning in consumer electronics (phone, music play, etc.) versus Microsoft there is real competition and MS had phones for a lot longer. MS is winning over Apple in the gaming console area but has lots of competition from real gaming companies..

http://www.internetworldstats.com/stats.htm [internetworldstats.com]

Re:26% of the planet connected (1)

Darkness404 (1287218) | more than 4 years ago | (#32223708)

but the vast majority of them are connecting with Mobile Devices.

...connecting how though? Yeah, I can get a browser on my nook but I'm not going to browse too much, just like I can get a browser on my iPod touch and phone. However, do I really -do- that much on them? Nope. I think its the same for most other people, about the only non-PC/Linux/Mac browser I used was the Wii browser and that was because of a large screen and Flash support.

Just because someone checks Facebook using their iPhone doesn't mean that things have really changed, mobile devices are still crappy for doing just about anything on the internet. Yeah, I might read a blog or two, check the news, etc. but its painful to do so, even on the best devices.

Re:26% of the planet connected (1)

hhawk (26580) | more than 4 years ago | (#32223768)

Agreed they have their limit but lets' also agree that what ever Apple does will be beyond their price range for many years...

And while it would suck to not have a PC and only have a phone, at least you get email, facebook, a few blogs as you suggest.. better than nothing.

The article is just a troller (5, Insightful)

joeflies (529536) | more than 4 years ago | (#32223658)

This guy just wrapped up all the common complaints that Adobe and the non-Apple customers want you to believe what's wrong with iPad, and sends off a profanity laced alcohol induced email exchange to see if he can out wit Steve Jobs.

I'd say that Steve stayed pretty much on message with what he's been always saying, even without his PR department to filter out his intent. And the blogger just looks like, well, a troll.

Re:The article is just a troller (1)

thenextpresident (559469) | more than 4 years ago | (#32223716)

So Steve got trolled. That doesn't inspire confidence. His response also shows that he felt that he had to respond, so I don't think these are minor complaints, but ones he has to fire back at. I also feel like he's getting this from other sources as well. I have to say, for him to respond so, I have to wonder how much pressure he's under. After all, what's next for Apple?

Yeah, people talking about freedom are often troll (1)

SmallFurryCreature (593017) | more than 4 years ago | (#32223828)

it is easy to call someone a troll, especially if they come with inconvenient truths that hit just a little to close to home.

Jobs first talks about freedom and then that freedom is not the issue. So what is it?

In many ways we have been lucky with the PC. We could have ended up with Apple or Commodore controlling the market, both the software and the hardware. Good luck getting Linux to run on a closed platform. Just see how much harder it is to get Linux on a mac, and that is the mac of the company that did NOT end up controlling the entire market.

While I dislike Gates with a passion, he did create a platform that is remarkably open. Old Borgie never cared if you watched porn on his OS. Never felt the need to keep the kiddies safe from titties. While I agree with Apples decision to ban flash from their platform, there is a danger in this.

Tell me, would you tolerate the sugar company banning you from eating their sugar raw? No? Then explain why you tolerate Apple banning flash. And if you comment that you don't mind being banned from eating sugar raw because you don't do that anyway, then you just don't get it and never will. Please, do not vote or reproduce. Don't ask why, smarter people are telling you and you should listen.

When does the line cross between protecting customers and controlling them? Would it be okay for MS to warn you that your are about to install virus? How about if they refuse to allow you to do so? How about a cheater program? A crack? You can argue for controlling such software but should MS be allowed to do so? Should Apple?

A story below this one is the story of Google Docs not being fully compatible and that using it might result in data loss. Wouldn't it be nice if MS stopped you from loosing data by refusing to allow you to export your documents to other formats? Well would it?

Who owns the iPad? Apple or the consumer? If MS tried to control your PC in the same way, would you tolerate it? Would you take it from Dell? Then why do you take it from Apple?

Now you can ignore Apples control for now, because you can easily work around them. nobody has to have an iPad, iPhone, iPod or Mac. No really, you do not. So their control is "harmless". For now.

But if we start allowing companies to believe that they can continue to tell us what they can do their products we bought from them, well where does it end? You see, I am still fearful of the DRM computer. The idea that has been floating around for a while to create system where the user no longer has final say in what runs and what does not on his on hardware. There are powerful interests from media companies (and Steve "Disney" Jobs knows this more then most) to make this happen. What we DON'T need right now is for consumer to just roll over on total control over their own possessions for a shiny toy.

Pierce through the Steve Jobs reality distortion field and you are being sold DRM. It might be shiny DRM, but that doesn't change its nature.

It might be harmless now, but will it continue to be harmless? Read some of the wilder proposals from the content industries, including such things as filters on all hardware to screen for copyrighted content and block its display. Would you buy it? Would you buy it from Apple? You are already doing it. Step 1 complete.

want to see my penis? (-1, Troll)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#32223662)

i'll show you my winkie stick. it's soooooo AWESOME!!

Steve Jobs also asked (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#32223664)

what this wank does to better society. Sorry, I don't see how limiting apps available on a product is in any way Orwellian, just very restrictive. Vote with your dollars. If you don't like it, get something else. If you don't like it, get an HP Hurricane when they come out.

Benefits (3, Insightful)

Darkness404 (1287218) | more than 4 years ago | (#32223672)

Steve Jobs seems to ignore everything that caused products to be successful: Price to performance. Lets see here the iPad

The iPad costs ~$500, a cheap notebook costs $300-400, paying $500 for a notebook usually gets you a fast, powerful notebook. With a notebook I'm not limited by stupid design decisions, even Microsoft lets me do what I want and doesn't restrict programs. If I want to install an emulator, thats fine. If I want to install Photoshop, thats fine. I don't have to worry about petty squabbles about how Flash is sooooo evil and destroying the world! I can just choose to install Flash or not. With a notebook I can pay ~$5 for a USB card reader rather than $30 for a single-format card reader. With a notebook I have choices of just about everything else, I'm not locked into expensive hardware.

The iPod won marketshare for having a good UI and being small. The iPad has a decent-ish design and decent UI. However, when I can get a laptop with a UI that I've been using for most of my adult life... Why change? The iPad runs expensive applications, a laptop runs free applications.

I think I'm not alone in thinking how annoying it is to have common-sense features be added in at a later date which would have already been done with a simi-open platform.

No one wants real applications! We will never have an iPhone SDK! After all, programs are -terrible- to run. No one wants an alternate browser! No one wants copy/paste! No one wants multi-tasking!

Sorry Steve, I don't understand your opposition to common sense. I have an iPod touch because at the time it was the cheapest wi-fi enabled device to have a good internet experience on the go with some games/music/movies. I'm not going to get an iPad because there are cheaper devices that do a -ton- more.

Re:Benefits (2, Interesting)

arbiter1 (1204146) | more than 4 years ago | (#32223772)

you can get new pc laptop that cheap, goin by prices on apple.com you can't get one their for anything short of a 1000$, might well go for that wepad that the one german company made, least they are not tieing ur ass down like mac does with all their crap. With all the tie downs they mark price for their stuff a good 50-70% higher then pc counter part with same hardware. you mac fan boys can call me a troll or flamer all you want but facts are Facts.

Re:Benefits (3, Insightful)

Darkness404 (1287218) | more than 4 years ago | (#32223826)

I'm not a Mac fan really, but if you look at the specs, Mac machines aren't that much more expensive than their PC counterparts spec-wise. The problem is, they have a lot of things most people don't need. Do you -really- need a backlit keyboard? What about a non-standard output port? Do you really need that Core i5 or Core i7 CPU? Do you really need DDR3 RAM? Etc.

The problem is, most people pay for a $1,000+ machine when their needs are met by a machine half the cost or less. Yes, there -are- people who need Core i7 CPUs and powerful graphics cards and OS X and all the fancy stuff. But the average user? No

Re:Benefits (3, Informative)

Antisyzygy (1495469) | more than 4 years ago | (#32223938)

You can build a PC that will wipe the floor with any Mac for 900 bucks.

Re:Benefits (1)

am 2k (217885) | more than 4 years ago | (#32223944)

At least Apple representatives don't lie to the media with a smile on their faces on product presentations You can't say that about the WePad (aka WeTap).

Re:Benefits (3, Insightful)

sootman (158191) | more than 4 years ago | (#32223814)

And for the elevnty-hojillionth freaking time, MORE IS NOT ALWAYS BETTER! Not EVERYONE needs to do EVERYTHING! Plenty of people CAN get by with a very limited device.

As for the rest of your rant, read this. [macworld.com]

[Engineers and designers at Apple] take something small, simple, and painstakingly well considered. They ruthlessly cut features to derive the absolute minimum core product they can start with. They polish those features to a shiny intensity. At an anticipated media event, Apple reveals this core product... Then everyone goes back to Cupertino and rolls. As in, they start with a few tightly packed snowballs and then roll them in more snow to pick up mass until they've got a snowman. That's how Apple builds its platforms. It's a slow and steady process of continuous iterative improvement...

Look at the original iPod. Kinda pricey, Mac only, FireWire only--wow, look at crazy Apple, they're selling something that doesn't even work with all the computers they've sold in the last few years! But they added Windows support, and USB, and photos, and videos, and then they made them in different sizes, and according to Wikipedia they've sold over a QUARTER BILLION of them [wikipedia.org] in less than ten years. So you'll have to excuse Mr. Jobs if he doesn't trip over himself to listen to your advice or anyone else's.

Geeks like Woz but the other Steve is plenty smart too. If you've got a little time, read this 1996 interview with Steve Jobs. [wired.com] Look at how much he got right: "The most exciting things happening today are objects and the Web. The Web is exciting for two reasons. One, it's ubiquitous. There will be Web dial tone everywhere. [emphasis added] And anything that's ubiquitous gets interesting. Two, I don't think Microsoft will figure out a way to own it."

Re:Benefits (0, Flamebait)

Darkness404 (1287218) | more than 4 years ago | (#32223924)

And for the elevnty-hojillionth freaking time, MORE IS NOT ALWAYS BETTER! Not EVERYONE needs to do EVERYTHING! Plenty of people CAN get by with a very limited device.

Like who? Show me someone who never uses Flash, never uses a printer, has nearly infinite cash, etc. The iPad fits the needs of no one as a the primary device Jobs thinks it should be. Its not a terrible secondary device, but Jobs has this misguided opinion that it should fit everyone's needs for everything. It doesn't. It could easily fit more people's needs if Jobs lived in reality. But eventually I suppose rationality will take hold and Apple will take credit for "inventing" printing/Flash/etc. in OS 5...

Look at the original iPod. Kinda pricey, Mac only, FireWire only--wow, look at crazy Apple, they're selling something that doesn't even work with all the computers they've sold in the last few years! But they added Windows support, and USB, and photos, and videos, and then they made them in different sizes, and according to Wikipedia they've sold over a QUARTER BILLION of them in less than ten years. So you'll have to excuse Mr. Jobs if he doesn't trip over himself to listen to your advice or anyone else's.

Look at Steve Jobs own policies. After all wasn't everyone happy with web apps? Wasn't web 2.0 and AJAX good enough? Oh and what about multi-tasking, copy-and-paste all things that Jobs had said no one needed but eventually it came. Same thing with Video iPod.

Jobs doesn't know what he is talking about, thankfully not everyone at Apple is as delusional as he is.

Geeks like Woz but the other Steve is plenty smart too. If you've got a little time, read this 1996 interview with Steve Jobs. Look at how much he got right: "The most exciting things happening today are objects and the Web. The Web is exciting for two reasons. One, it's ubiquitous. There will be Web dial tone everywhere. [emphasis added] And anything that's ubiquitous gets interesting. Two, I don't think Microsoft will figure out a way to own it."

Um, it was 1996, -everyone- thought the web was the "next big thing" (hence the dot-com bubble). Yeah, he predicted that the web would be everywhere, no that wasn't an original thought.

Re:Benefits (5, Insightful)

cowscows (103644) | more than 4 years ago | (#32223816)

Nobody would ever spend $100 on a fancy chef's knife when they could spend $40 and get a pocket knife that's not only got a blade to cut things, but also a screwdriver, a bottle opener, a tiny saw, and some tweezers.

Except that many people are plenty happy to spend their money on something that is designed to do particular tasks well, even if it can't do everything that a similar product can do.

Re:Benefits (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#32223820)

Sorry Steve, I don't understand your opposition to common sense. I have an iPod touch because at the time it was the cheapest wi-fi enabled device to have a good internet experience on the go with some games/music/movies. I'm not going to get an iPad because there are cheaper devices that do a -ton- more.

BS. You could have bought a netbook for the same price and done all the same stuff, plus ten thousand more, with a bigger screen, etc, etc, etc.

You chose the Touch for its form factor, UI, usability, etc. You've torpedoed your own argument.

Re:Benefits (1)

SoupIsGoodFood_42 (521389) | more than 4 years ago | (#32223844)

Jobs clearly isn't after your market. Perhaps that's because it's much smaller than you imagine it to be. I'm a techie and I'd prefer an iPad for many computing tasks. In a few years, many people won't need the more advanced features of traditional desktops computers.

Re:Benefits (4, Insightful)

am 2k (217885) | more than 4 years ago | (#32223922)

Sounds to me like you want a laptop, not an iPad. Due to this, I'd suggest getting a laptop, not an iPad, since the iPad doesn't seem to fit your use case.

On the other hand, if somebody wants a small gadget with a streamlined user experience that's also adapted to the hardware (no dialog boxes that don't fit on your mini screen, no 5x5mm touch areas, ), the iPad might be the right buying decision.

Incidentally, that's also what Steve Jobs (or whoever replied) said in those replies: Nobody is forcing you to get an iPad or develop for it. It's a free market. Just because you think you have no use case for it doesn't mean that nobody has one.

In the words of Aerosmith (1)

JonChance (1115393) | more than 4 years ago | (#32223678)

Dream on.

I like the freedom that the PC offers. If I want to run Windows , Linux, BSD and any of it's 31 flavors, Solaris or even MacOS I can. Now before you say I am anti-Apple. I have an old Imac I am converting into a lunchbox computer. But I still like the freedom of my PC in all of it's wonderful quirks and hardware and software choices. Yes I realize that with great computing freedom comes risk, but at times that is the fun of it. I am not in this walled garden clueless as to what is out there.

Jobs and Microsoft have something in common, both are waiting for the death of their biggest competition. For Jobs it is the PC and for Microsoft it is FOSS and Linux.

I recall an Apple Advert that played on several Orwellian themes, Now days it appears that apple was just looking in to future and into a mirror...

Re:In the words of Aerosmith (1)

cowscows (103644) | more than 4 years ago | (#32223876)

And there will always be someone out there to sell you stuff that you like. Meanwhile the bulk of people in the world want easier to use, fuss-free computers, and so Apple is trying to make them. No biggie.

Apple is the future, everyone else is dead. (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#32223682)

Steve's right! All technology companies must shut down and we must all start purchasing everything exclusively from Apple. They're clearly the only option for the future.

Seriously, everything Apple does is designed to keep you trapped within their closed ecosystem. If you succumb to Steve and has trashy products, the above message is what you're sending.

Signs of insanity... (1, Funny)

Hurricane78 (562437) | more than 4 years ago | (#32223722)

LOL. This is like the pope telling scientists that “reality” is slipping away.

My friend Jobs... before you tell others that their reality is slipping away, maybe you should check if you yourself still live in reality. ^^

I’m just saying... no Java or Flash (or in fact any freedom to run what you like) on your devices, “because Steve Jobs said so” instead of what would have actually made sense... that should have been the first sign to bring the nice guys in the white coats with the straitjacket... ;)

people don't want to fiddle (3, Insightful)

fermion (181285) | more than 4 years ago | (#32223732)

I hate to keep bringing this up, but people don't want to fiddle with machines. They want them to work. Most people I know buy PCs because that is what they use at work and school. They get free software and often free support.

If the iPad can provide the functionality they need, and contrary to the false statement, free p0rn(who wants to pay for an app to pay for p0rn anyway) and let the kids write papers with a bluetooth keyboard and not have updates fail because MS cannot verify via WGA an accuse the user of theft, then why buy anything else?

I feel a little disturbed that I can't change batteries, add memory, or write my own programs like I can on my Mac, but then I don't fix my own car anymore either. The worlds moves on, and one either moves or gets run over. And just look at the unemployment rate in the US to see what happens to those that get run over. Sure you can hold rallies and complain about taxes and blame the immigrants, but you are still run over.

It would be more interesting if RMS was added (1)

yuhong (1378501) | more than 4 years ago | (#32223740)

It would be more interesting if rms@gnu.org was added to the CC list.

What disappoints me... (3, Interesting)

fuzzyfuzzyfungus (1223518) | more than 4 years ago | (#32223742)

Is that the guy who decided to go up against Steve did such a tepid job of it.

If you really feel like trying to piss Jobs off for his control-freakery and insistence on building Computers Where The Trains Run on Time, you don't just whine about "freedom", you throw his past as an ostensibly anti-establishment maverick in his face.

"So, Steve, you finally got rid of those slots that Woz was always sneaking in to things, and have even managed to build a (walled) garden of pure ideology, where each user may bloom secure from the pests of contradictory runtimes and confusing languages..."

Re:What disappoints me... (1)

fuzzyfuzzyfungus (1223518) | more than 4 years ago | (#32223770)

Of course, if he responds:

"Our unification of Platform is more powerful a weapon than any Android on earth. Our enemies shall fragment themselves to death and we will bury them in their own version proliferation."

Then you know you just got punked...

Never forget: Mac is a PC. Jobs hates Freedom (1)

Culture20 (968837) | more than 4 years ago | (#32223796)

iMacs, Macbooks, etc, are Personal Computers. Steve Jobs says that PCs are going away, and that lockdown is the future of computing. He's delusional. Where will the content come from for his iPads? Other iPads? There have to be non-locked-down computers in the future, and until people's internet access has five or six nines, the computers need to be Personal Computers, not cloud-servers.

Re:Never forget: Mac is a PC. Jobs hates Freedom (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#32223942)

Apple, Microsoft, and the RIAA/MPAA would disagree.

Ah, yes; "freedom from." (4, Insightful)

Millennium (2451) | more than 4 years ago | (#32223842)

Negative freedoms: the biggest load of BS to infect pop sociology in the last century. When someone claims to offer or desire "freedom from" anything, run for the hills, because they are either too naive to understand the costs or too traumatized to care. Neither viewpoint is healthy.

Re:Ah, yes; "freedom from." (1)

MachineShedFred (621896) | more than 4 years ago | (#32223894)

So you're saying that we should be looking for the freedom from freedoms from stuff?

Head detonation in 3... 2... 1...

Somethings slipping away... (2, Informative)

nickdwaters (1452675) | more than 4 years ago | (#32223846)

The only thing I see slipping is Steve's grip on reality. The Apple world is infitesimal compared to PC.

The more here squeezes... (1)

rec9140 (732463) | more than 4 years ago | (#32223862)

the more sales of crapple crap will slip through his hands....

Don't own, don't use crapple and will never will.

If any ones world is slipping away its crapple...

squeeze harder while you can joboi...

How to beat the iPad (1)

mbkennel (97636) | more than 4 years ago | (#32223916)

1) get Chinese hardware manufacturers to clone the hardware
2) set up App store.
3) make sure it is [b]very[/b] well optimized for flash video
4) Include Silicone case. Very warm battery. Good for 'reading' in bed.
5) including all the tunneling software built in. Make sure "It just Works" especially in non-Western nations.
6) Start viral rumor, which turns out to be true, about secret "porn mode" switch.
7) Profit!

So is it or is it not? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 4 years ago | (#32223952)

About freedom Steve? First mail says it is all about Freedom (fine print - as he defines it.) Then few mails later suddenly it is not about Freedom. It is about Apple doing the right thing.

May be in Steve's world Freedom is a code name for a future product which has an ability to disappear when you make it do something that Apple don't want you to make it do.
(Sorry Jail breakers and Porn fans - you are just going to have to give it up.)

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