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FingerWorks Offers Replacement PowerBook Keyboard

pudge posted more than 11 years ago | from the now-we-just-need-a-drop-in-multi-button-trackpad dept.

Portables (Apple) 82

JerryKnight writes "FingerWorks, the inventor of TouchStream keyboards such as the LP, is taking pre-orders for a drop-in replacement for the keyboard in a 15" PowerBook G4 that is pretty much the same thing as the LP. Now the beautiful PowerBook can be completely smooth. Words fail to express the enthusiasm felt by me and hopefully anyone else who has used these keyboards. No word on availability. List price: $259." It's called the MacNTouch. Hm.

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great... (3, Insightful)

kasper37 (90457) | more than 11 years ago | (#6085169)

Unless you use your left thumb for the space bar like I do...

Re:great... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#6085368)

Hmm. I just realized that I use my left thumb, too.

Oh well, the layout doesn't look like it would be more productive and it would feel different from other keyboards so I don't see the point, especially considering the price.

But I haven't used any PowerBook keyboards so I don't know what I'm comparing it to.

Re:great... (1)

IronTek (153138) | more than 11 years ago | (#6085682)

Just remap the keys in OS X to however you like.

Duh. ;-)

Re:great... (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#6088212)

Sorry, bad wording. Obviously I can use whatever "layout" I wanted (I actually do type Dvorak most of the time). What I meant was the physical positional differences of this keyboard compared to others. For example, the function keys go down the center of the keyboard.

I'll try to be more clear in the future...

Re:great... (1)

Dylan Zimmerman (607218) | more than 11 years ago | (#6103092)

That probably has to do with typing while your right hand is on your mouse. I use my right index finger for almost every space except for the ones at the ends of sentences. For those, I use my left thumb. Weird, huh? Of course, my keyboard is at about a -30 degree angle relative to my body, so my right thumb isn't anywhere near the spacebar most of the time.

I also have my mouse close enough to my keyboard that I can hit the number-pad Enter with my thumb when I need to enter something.

The cool thing about that "keyboard's" layout is that it's ALL is software. If you were able to obtain driver level access to it, you could probably remap the key positions arbitrarily. For instance, you could make the entire bottom inch into a giant space-bar. I wonder how long it will be before someone hacks it to accept user-designed keyboard files.

Since it's all in software, it can also move the mouse and handle real hand gestures. You can use gestures to control zoom levels in Photoshop, for instance. Or, at least, that's how they're supposed to work. I don't have one to test that on, so I don't really know how well the gestures work.

Re:great... (2, Funny)

Shishio (540577) | more than 10 years ago | (#6087126)

Wow, I never thought about what finger I use for spaces.

I had to open up terminal and type a sentence just to figure it out.

Re:great... (1)

bedouin (248624) | more than 11 years ago | (#6087875)

Right thumb here. Of course I'm left handed.

I wonder if right handed people use the left thumb by default, and left handed the right?

Sad I'm even thinking about this :(

Re:great... (1)

SiMac (409541) | more than 11 years ago | (#6090463)

I'm right handed and I use the left thumb, so perhaps. I just realized that I use all of the fingers on my left hand and only my index finger on my right hand. Why do I use my non-dominant hand so much more than my dominant hand? I suppose I'll never know.

Re:great... (1)

Laplace (143876) | more than 11 years ago | (#6091871)

How did you learn to type? Most programs I've seen start with left hand on the home row. Left handed typing is probably what you learned first.

Re:great... (1)

SiMac (409541) | more than 11 years ago | (#6091936)

I didn't use a program to learn to type. I started with hunt and peck and eventually the way I type became the way I type now. I think it's possible that I type the way I do because I'm used to keyboard shortcuts, and on my first keyboard there were no right control/alt/etc. keys.

Re:great... (1)

phoenix_rizzen (256998) | more than 11 years ago | (#6098102)

Depends on the person, the method of typing they learned, and which finger was last used to type a word.

Me, I usually use my right thumb. Sometimes, I'll use my left, but not often.

Granted, I don't do standard touch typing using all 10 fingers. I use three fingers on my left hand, three fingers on my right hand, and my right thumb. My pinkies are generally unused. And I can still attain 60-90 corrected wpm. :)

It really depends on your typing style, the style of keyboard you are used to, and what your muscles are used to doing. There is no real "standard" for which thumb to use for space.

Re:great... (2, Informative)

Mr. Light Touch (18906) | more than 11 years ago | (#6092768)

You can remap the BackSpace/Delete or any other key you like with our gesture editor (still in Beta). If you can put up with about a week's confusion from learning any new key swap, the thumb BackSpace will feel great for the rest of your life!

This is great news! (4, Funny)

AtariAmarok (451306) | more than 11 years ago | (#6085202)

I was about to replace my Powerbook keyboard with one from an old Atari 400. Now I won't have to.

Re:This is great news! (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#6086457)

Zing :). I was thinking along those same lines when I saw it!

~~~

Re:This is great news! (1)

steeviant (677315) | more than 11 years ago | (#6088340)

I thought of my dear old ZX 81.

Re:This is great news! (1)

Megane (129182) | more than 11 years ago | (#6104929)

Yep, "zero-touch" and "membrane" keyboards may look real cool, but unless you like looking at your fingers while you type, it is absolutely horrible in practice. Without those nice bumps and valleys all over the place, it's practically impossible to type reliably.

For the young-uns out there, let me explain it in terms they can understand better. You know those cheap plastic DDR pads? And how sometimes your position drifts and you step on the "X" instead of the right arrow? This is the same thing, only with fingers. That's the problem with having no sense of feel to tell you where you are.

Re:This is great news! (1)

Mr. Light Touch (18906) | more than 11 years ago | (#6107791)

There are some huge differences between our 'zero-force' typing and a membrane keyboard. Membrane keyboards require you to apply pressure at the center of the key. You have to make sure to press hard to always meet the pressure threshold, and you have to make sure NOT to hit between keys, both of which slow you down to speeds 40wpm.

Our 'zero-force' typing system is MUCH more forgiving. There is no minimum pressure threshold, so you can drop your fingers on the surface as lightly as you like. And when you hit in between keys, we have sophisticated drift tracking algorithms and spelling models that guess your intended key correctly most of the time. So with practice people CAN touch type at a pretty good clip, up to 60-70wpm. To avoid long-term drift, we recommend people practice recentering on the home row key 'braille dots' between phrases. You're right, not everyone seems to be able to learn to get by without tactile key edges, but the majority of our customers do.

Re:This is great news! (1)

Matthew Weigel (888) | more than 11 years ago | (#6202685)

Nope.

Proper typing (that is, how people have typed for over a century successfully) has you only making contact with the keys on contact, which is not different whether there are edges or not.

The primary tactile feedback necessary for touch-typing is the home-row dimple. To help align your hands, this keyboard has a dimple for each finger. Should work fine.

Interesting, but perhaps too responsive (5, Insightful)

Bookwyrm (3535) | more than 11 years ago | (#6085389)

After looking at some of the sample gestures for the keyboard, I have to admit I am somewhat impressed. Some very interesting ideas there. After looking at more of the sample gestures for the touch keyboard, I am still impressed, but wary.

It reminds me of the problems with 'logically designed languages'. (i.e. all words for colors in the language might start with "cro", "crob" is blue, "crog" is green, "cror" is red, etc. The problem being that a single typos in the word might still be a valid word of a similiar type, but not what you meant.) I suspect someone who became a total expert with the keyboard could do just fine, but an intermediate user could get highly frustrated -- forgetting to use/accidently using an extra finger in a gesture might cause some unwanted operation to happen, not merely cause the desired operation to not happen. Maybe the software is smart enough to second guess some of these issues, but...

Go to the company's page and look at the Enhanced Modifier Chords [fingerworks.com] -- if you tap with six fingers on the home row, you get an Enter -- if you tap six fingers on the row above the home row, you get an Esc key press. (Personally, I would immediately redefine those two gestures to have far more difference between the two -- accidently hitting "Enter" when one meant "Escape" in some dialog boxes would be very bad.) Or the shift/control differences.

Of course, one could just not use the gestures, but then why bother with the keyboard?

Nonetheless, very interesting ideas, but it may not be ready for everyone.

Re:Interesting, but perhaps too responsive (1)

Klaruz (734) | more than 11 years ago | (#6085491)

I think this looks pretty neat for left handed powerbook users.

It's a bit of a stretch trying to use modifier keys while pointing with another finger and then clicking with your thumb since control is on the left side of the keyboard.

I'm allready a big fan of launchbar to avoid having to move my hands. I'd love to try one of these out for a while, but the price is a bit scary. I'm going to go try to dig up some reviews.

Re:Interesting, but perhaps too responsive (1)

Mr. Light Touch (18906) | more than 11 years ago | (#6092783)

Ah, but lefties can use a right hand modifier chord [fingerworks.com] with their left-hand pointing/clicking. Avoids all pinky awkwardness.

Re:Interesting, but perhaps too responsive (1)

Klaruz (734) | more than 11 years ago | (#6092985)

Yes, exactly. That's why i said it would be neat. It's the stock powerbook keyboard that's a pain for us lefties to control click. Not to mention left handed unix geeks that run X11 on their powerbook too. Most of us are ambidextrous to a certain extent, but it's still a pain.

Are you getting a distributer in the midwest? I'd love to try one out. It's a lot of money to spend on something I don't know if I'd like. I'm pretty concerned about touch typing (I'm sure many of your customers are).

If you'd like some contacts, here's 2 good local computer shops here in Omaha:

DIT computers: a discount computer parts shop kinda place, lots and lots of customers. www.ditcorp.com

Computers to go: not as cheap, but much better service. The owner is pretty easy to deal with. www.computers2go.com

Re:Interesting, but perhaps too responsive (1)

Megane (129182) | more than 11 years ago | (#6104951)

I'm a leftie and I have no problem with control being in the lower left corner of the keyboard. What I do have a big problem with is that stupid "Fn" key being there instead! And then having to go back to my desktop keyboard without a Fn key. I hardly ever use the stupid Fn key, but it's in a prominent place.

Re:Interesting, but perhaps too responsive (1)

Megane (129182) | more than 11 years ago | (#6105043)

I hardly ever use the stupid Fn key

Oops. Except when I'm doing the PgUp/PgDn/Home/End stuff.

Re:Interesting, but perhaps too responsive (1)

kurosawdust (654754) | more than 11 years ago | (#6087456)

It reminds me of the problems with 'logically designed languages...

Can anyone out there explain what this is referring to? are these computer languages or human-communication ones? I tried to google for the term (with or without a hyphen and singular or plural) and came up with nothing.

Re:Interesting, but perhaps too responsive (1)

Bookwyrm (3535) | more than 11 years ago | (#6087697)

Try this link for an artificially constructed language to see what I was referring to:

http://www.medianet.pl/~andrew/l/ebubo.htm [medianet.pl]

It's very regular, very logically designed, and a single mis-typed character can still yield a valid word -- no way of error detection (i.e. in English, I can type "the color bluu", "the color bleu", "the color "bluo", "the color blu", and people can probably guess what I mean. In Ebubo, "awa" (green) and "awe" (cyan) and "awi" "red" have no such distinctive differences. If I were to refer to the color "aw_", there is no way to guess what I was referring to.)

And of course, there's LogLan [loglan.org] (i.e. LOGical LANguage).

For artifical languages in general:

http://www.langmaker.com/mlindex.htm [langmaker.com]

I can't off-hand find the paper which discusses the problem of artificial 'logical' languages having problems with error correction/noise, unfortunately. It's probably linked somewhere on langmaker.com, though, which is a fascinating site in itself.

Re:Interesting, but perhaps too responsive (1)

JerryKnight (465510) | more than 11 years ago | (#6093241)

In my experience, it is a rare case to mistake a row on the chords, and the reason is this: In order to type on the LP (this will also apply to MacNTouch when it is released), your heels must be immobile, either by training or by keeping them firmly placed. This prevents "drifting" of the hands since you no longer have the feedback from the keys to keep your fingers in position. Once you learn this and successfully type on the keyboard, it is obvious to the hands where each of the rows is, and therefore easy to distinguish which of the chords you are using. If you just plop your hands down, you will probably be off, but taking the 2 seconds to align the hands using the braille dots prevents that.

Nonetheless, very interesting ideas, but it may not be ready for everyone.

Maybe "everyone" is not ready for it. Fingerworks can't do much more to make it more appealling (except of course the price). It will just have to catch on. The technology is probably better in terms of comfort, efficiency, and health (RSI, CTS, etc), and I'm sure this will be fully verified in time by more than just enthusiastic advocates. Now, not everyone will be willing to put up with the headache of learning it (zero-force typing is not fun to learn at first), but those who do will see the vast benefits available.

Re:Interesting, but perhaps too responsive (1)

The Variable Man (116365) | more than 11 years ago | (#6093755)

I have a touchstream keyboard and would not go back to using a mechanical one. The gestures are for the most part very intuitive. Mouse movement and text selection typically take only minutes to learn.

The enhanced gestures you mention are aimed at expert users and have simpler non-zonal equivalents.

I find the keyboard far more effcient and less stressful than any other setup and I've tried a few over the years!

Re:Interesting, but perhaps too responsive (2, Insightful)

Yarn (75) | more than 11 years ago | (#6093868)

...and would not go back to using a mechanical one

This is why I'm dubious, I have to use a lot of different machines, it isn't economic to replace the keyboards for them all, and this would just confuse me. QWERTY may be a crappy standard, but it is a standard.

Re:Interesting, but perhaps too responsive (1)

The Variable Man (116365) | more than 11 years ago | (#6094004)

QWERTY may be a crappy standard

My keyboard is querty. I like to think of it as an extension of the mouse/keyboard interface. I have no problem using my laptop or any other setup for that matter.

I use this because the amount of time I spend working on my computer any improvement in comfort and effciency is worth it to me.

Looks nice (4, Interesting)

weeeeed (675324) | more than 11 years ago | (#6085562)

BUT... ;) ...looking at the layout [fingerworks.com] (which I hope is not final), why is the function key replaced with shift? When I reach out for the fn key on my current keyboard I have trouble accessing the other keys covered by the left hand. I know I have small hands, but come on... leave it where it is at the current size (two keys wide).

Same for return... umm enter... where is return??? I know quite some apps, where return and enter have different functions... take Fire for example: return sends out, enter makes a new line in the message... I do not think I would want to use additional shift for this. And it IS far too small, leave it at the current size, it was already difficult enough for me to stop hitting back-slash all the time...

Overall:
the whole right part of the keyboard is messed up and will require you to get used to the new layout.

Too much self advertisement... use it for bigger keys instead, although the hand is quite cute.

Can I press command + option with one finger only? I hope so.

NO IBOOK?

What about the heat? I have 1GHz and it gets quite hot already. If you look at the current keyboard, it is designed to provide better air circulation. You think it is not important? Buy the hoover TiBook, wait until the fans go on, lift the keyboard and wait for a while... the fans go off. With the keyboard it takes longer time for the fans to go off, I dunno about MacNTouch with no holes at all.

I do not think I will buy it, maybe I would for my iBook, but it has IMO too many design/usability flaws. I had to try it out first.

weeeee

Re:Looks nice (1)

Baumi (148744) | more than 10 years ago | (#6086897)

I think that there are so-called chords for most modifer keys, so you won't have to reach for the fn- or the shift key. (Not sure if that makes things better or worse...)

Personally, I'd go for the iGesture Pad [fingerworks.com] . It might not be usable on a plane, but it's most probably easier to master gesture-mousing than gesture-typing.

Then again, the TouchStream ST has scored excellent reviews [extremetech.com] .

Considering my budget, however, I'll most probably never get my hands onto either one... :-(

(No pun intended.)

Re:Looks nice (1)

inertia@yahoo.com (156602) | more than 11 years ago | (#6089562)

Can I press command + option with one finger only? I hope so.

I didn't even think about it, but I press command + option with only one finger too. But the only function I can think of off hand also includes the Escape key. Do we really use Force Quit Application that much in OS X?

I guess one could always create a gesture for Force Quit Application. Maybe a circle with a line through it?

Re:Looks nice (1)

weeeeed (675324) | more than 11 years ago | (#6091232)

I didn't even think about it, but I press command + option with only one finger too. But the only function I can think of off hand also includes the Escape key.

There are quite a lot of applications with rather long key shortcuts: Being web/it-developer I use Photoshop a lot, my favourite shortcut is: Comand+Option+Shift+S (Save for Web).

View Source in Safari: Cmd+Opt+V

BBEdit has quite a bunch of those shortcuts as well.

Weeeee

Re:Looks nice (1)

Mr. Light Touch (18906) | more than 11 years ago | (#6092805)

We've posted some notes [fingerworks.com] on the layout page to explain why the modifier and enter keys were relegated to the bottom row.

href=http://www.fingerworks.com/images/layouts/Mac NTouch_printable.html

Basically, TouchStreams have home-row chords and other convenient gestures to replace all these keys. Our customers quickly find the gestures are easier to learn and use than any pinky key placement, hence we focused on large, comfortable placement of the alphabetic keys.

Re:Looks nice (1)

JerryKnight (465510) | more than 11 years ago | (#6093041)

Having used the LP (obviously since I submitted the story) for a while now, this is a welcome advancement from Fingerworks, even if I don't own a 15" Powerbook (yet). The layout I find to be very intuitive relative to the LP. The LP itself has some oddities that really help after learning them.

Modifiers: I can say from experience that you will never use the modifier keys again, except maybe for double-modifier combos (although double-chording does work). Chording is the way to go. You can even "cheat" and apply the chord and then hit a key with the same hand (by keeping at least one finger down while typing the other key).

As far as enter/return... Another key you will never use, if you use one of the multiple chords for return. I mostly use the "3 fingers on home row on each hand" chord more than the new "thumb and pinky" chord, since even after years of piano, I mess up the timing on that one. Also, I believe that the chords are for "enter" but it is all configurable with the gesture editor.

I also heard rumors about the regular keyboard on the 15" powerbook sometimes damaging the screen. This will no doubt solve that potential problem. And the price is $80 less than the LP (since it now comes with the $40 tent stand) so it should be very affordable.

Heat? It doesn't seem to me that the airspace under normal keys does any good at radiating heat, since the keyboard as a whole is not permeable (metal or plastic plate under the keys). Therefore, the MacNTouch should make no difference heat-wise.

I wait anxiously for the same keyboard to be available for Dell laptops. =)

Power Drain on battery (3, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#6085700)

I read a review onthe TouchStream LP somewhere that said it cut battery life in half when used on notebooks! I hope the powerbook version draws less power.

I haven't measured, but the keyboard on my TiBook looks very similar to the one in my iBook... I wonder if it would work in both?

Still, for the money, perhaps it would be better to buy the TouchStream LP and just bring it along with you. It folds up for portability. I know the drop in replacement is slick, but it means it will only ever work on the TiBook... if you are like me and move from machine to machine, I think portability of such an expensive keyboard would outweigh the wow-factor of having it built in to the TiBook.

But then, maybe I am crazy. Or something.

Re:Power Drain on battery (2, Informative)

Mr. Light Touch (18906) | more than 11 years ago | (#6092921)

I think the 'cut battery life in half' was a bit of an exaggeration, unless the reviewer's test was on a mini-notebook. We don't have the final specs yet, but the MacNTouch should use less than half as much power as the TouchStream LP, which uses 250mA@5V -> 1.25 Watts/hour. The 15" PowerBook's battery supposedly has a 61 W-hour capacity. You do the math...

As we're able to reduce the TouchStream LP's power usage, we'll update its tech specs page as well.

Re:Power Drain on battery (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#6120767)

Hey, I don't have a problem with it.... I'll probably buy one.... for my ibook too?

I can't find much literature on these keyboards on the net, so thanks for the information.

What about the trackpad? (3, Interesting)

BandwidthHog (257320) | more than 11 years ago | (#6085738)

Not to troll, but getting a replacement 2 button trackbad to the market is the only way I'd ever be able to use an Apple laptop. I've got an old 190cs as a toy, but for daily use? Nope.

Of course, maybe I should be suggesting same to manufacturer, rather than bitching about it to the slashbots?

Re:What about the trackpad? (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#6085780)

Any self respecting person is using an external mouse anyway. And beside that, I do not miss the second button on the trackpad.

Re:What about the trackpad? (1, Flamebait)

Klaruz (734) | more than 11 years ago | (#6085866)

Ok, when you use mac os you don't really need 2 buttons. It's a myth, in windows and unix you NEED 2 buttons, in mac os you don't. You 190cs should have NO use for a 2 button mouse at all (unless you run some heavy duty apps, but i doubt that), apple didn't introduce control clicking (right click in windows) until OS 8 I believe. I doubt your 190cs is running 8.

Personally I mostly use mac os x gui apps along with terminals to unix boxen. I've had no real need for a 2 button mouse. When the powerbook is on my desk i have a 2 button scrolling mouse that works fine. The 1 mouse button 'toy' has replaced my unix and windows machines as my main machine. Despite having a slower processor. As I said in another comment, the only thing about a 1 button mouse on a powerbook is that it sucks if you're left handed (control clicking is a stretch due to the lack of a control key on the right side).

Also, this keyboard also acts as a mouse. Using gestures you activate the mouse mode and different tap combinations act as various mouse presses. You can even scroll with a gesture. It looks pretty slick.

Re:What about the trackpad? (1)

BandwidthHog (257320) | more than 11 years ago | (#6086187)

True, I don't *need* the right mouse button, but I sure as hell prefer it.

And as for the 'toy' comment, I was referring only to that 190, since it's so underpowered by today's standards. I wasn't talking about Macs in general, as I quite prefer my 533mhz G4 tower to the 2.5ghz Dell I have at work.

And again, all this is academic (or worse!) since I have neither the cash nor the need for a PowerBook. (I'm saving up for the 4.2ghz Quad 980 that's being released next month.)

But... (2, Informative)

2nd Post! (213333) | more than 10 years ago | (#6087040)

If you're using the mouse, you have one hand (at the most) on the keyboard and the other at the pad; index on the pad, thumb on the button, and let's say your left hand on the keyboard...

Immediately that means you have a five button mouse at your disposal:

Click
Shift-click
Ctrl-click
Option-click
Co mmand-click

Not to mention chords:
Shift-ctrl-click
Shift-command-click
Sh ift-option-click
etc, etc, etc.

So... why is the lack of a right mouse button (ctrl-click, but you know this already, right?) stopping you from using a PowerBook, other than the lack of cash? Is it just an academic excuse not to own a Powerbook? (Oh, it doesn't have a dedicated right mouse button!)?

2 button trackpad? (1)

ihatewinXP (638000) | more than 11 years ago | (#6085933)

You know that would be a killer product. Having owned a Powerbook and a few desktop Macs I get used to having the 2 button scroll on my desktops, not that ctrl+clicking is that bad (esp on a laptop where your hands arent really going to ever be but a few inches from the keys) but its still annoying. Should Apple change and make 2 button track-pads? No, and we arent going to get into why. But would I buy a replacement 2 button pad? Ya damn right.

"Bob, how much would you like to wager on our first test?... All of em?.. He's going to shoot the works! or "main-line it" as we call it here on 'Let's Make a Dope Deal'!"

Re:What about the trackpad? (1)

Baumi (148744) | more than 11 years ago | (#6086194)

Not meaning to troll, either, but my experience is just the opposite: Whenever I'm at a Windows laptop, I find myself constantly hitting the wrong button below the trackpad.

Well, I guess it's all just a matter of what you're used to.

Re:What about the trackpad? (2, Interesting)

TheRaven64 (641858) | more than 10 years ago | (#6087030)

Whenever I'm at a Windows laptop, I find myself constantly hitting the wrong button below the trackpad.
Well, I guess it's all just a matter of what you're used to.

Not entirely true. I'm used to 3+ buttons, and I constantly hit the wrong button on a windows machine's trackpad. One thing I did like was the way the right hand edge of the tackpad on said machine worked as a scroll wheel (which is something I miss far more than the second button when I use an Apple mouse). Does / can the PowerBook trackpad do this?

Re:What about the trackpad? (3, Informative)

Baumi (148744) | more than 11 years ago | (#6087293)

Not quite, but uControl [gnufoo.org] offers similar functionality: You can scroll via trackpad by pressing the function key (configurable).

It's mainly a keyboard-remapping software - the trackpad stuff is just an added bonus.

Re:What about the trackpad? (3, Interesting)

addaon (41825) | more than 10 years ago | (#6086825)

How hard would it be to do this as a home-made mod? Even if a company were to come out with a two-button trackpad add-on (which I would love, even though I don't have a personal need for it; choice is good), it ain't going to be for anything older than a albook / ibook (I'm surprised this keyboard is for the nearly-dead tibook). Looking at my ibook, the clicky thing (button) is right in the center of the trackpad button, so the right-hand third of the button could be removed without problems. This leaves a left-click button larger than the potential right button, but as left-click is more common anyway, this could be argued away as a good thing. Now, what can we put in the space we have? I haven't looked inside an ibook for a while, but imagine we're quite space-limited. Even so, it shouldn't be hard to wire in something from a membrane keypad or some such, or even or a more typical switch in the available space. Now, how to connect it? I suspect this is where we get bit, although on an albook without bluetooth, it's manageable. The bluetooth modules in the albooks hook up to usb headers. All you need is the board out of a usb mini-mouse, wire it up to the usb sensor, and rewire the right-button switch to use the switch you added. To the OS, the left and right button signals will appear to come from different mice, but that should be acceptable. The iBook, at least, has enough empty space for an additional circuit board that size (wrap it in electrical tape and just stick it in somewhere)... haven't been inside an albook yet.

Anyone have any suggestions for improvement to this technique?

Re:What about the trackpad? (2, Interesting)

cjhuitt (466651) | more than 11 years ago | (#6090091)

I've never looked inside the case of one of Apple's new laptops, but if you're good you should be able to wire something up so that by pressing the new button, the option key and the regular mouse click signals are both emitted. That would save the necessity of another mouse board, and would appear to the operating system to be the default "contextual menu" key/mouse combo.

There might be a bit of timing involved in this solution, however.

Re:What about the trackpad? (1)

Megane (129182) | more than 11 years ago | (#6104999)

The main thing to keep in mind is that all Powerbook trackpads, presumably even the current AlBook models, are... ADB! Yes, the venerable Apple Desktop Bus is still not quite dead yet. ADB never had a standard way to support a right mouse button, and always required driver software.

Wiring up a gutted USB mouse chip to a spare internal USB header is a pretty clever idea, if you (like me) don't give a rats ass about Bluetooth.

Re:What about the trackpad? (4, Interesting)

shunnicutt (561059) | more than 11 years ago | (#6087654)

On my PowerBook, I always tap on the trackpad in order to click. I always use the tap-drag to drag. I never use the physical trackpad button.

I'd love to find a piece of software that recognized the physical trackpad button as a control-click, thus simulating a two-button mouse.

Re:What about the trackpad? (2, Interesting)

addaon (41825) | more than 11 years ago | (#6087767)

On the same note, I always thought it would be nice if, if apple is really going to stick with this one-button strategy, they made the touchpad touch-surface the whole size of the touchpad. That is, eliminate the button entirely, and just support tapping on a larger surface. And since apple uses touchpads with the same aspect ration as their monitors, it would make the touchpad significantly wider as well... bigger is better, when it comes to control surfaces, whether on airplanes or laptops.

Re:What about the trackpad? (1)

kyrre (197103) | more than 11 years ago | (#6089726)

That would not be nice at all. I use the trackpad button all the time. I've turned off the trackpad tap function. When its enabled I constantly find myself clicking, when I just trying to move my finger around on the pad. Its all about getting used to it of course, but Im fine with the button. Keep the button!

more buttons (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#6085759)

At least it has page-up and page-down buttons on it!

Re:more buttons (1)

Mr. Light Touch (18906) | more than 11 years ago | (#6092874)

And pageup/dn gestures [fingerworks.com] as well! Just slide 4 fingers up/down on the left half. Slide 4 fingers up/down on the right half for smooth scroll.

Appropriate name (0)

orkysoft (93727) | more than 11 years ago | (#6085885)

Mac-NT-ouch :-P

Dear Apple (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#6085952)

Dear Apple,

I am a homosexual. I bought an Apple computer because of its well earned reputation for being "the" gay computer. Since I have become an Apple owner, I have been exposed to a whole new world of gay friends. It is really a pleasure to meet and compute with other homos such as myself. I plan on using my new Apple computer as a way to entice and recruit young schoolboys into the homosexual lifestyle; it would be so helpful if you could produce more software which would appeal to young boys. Thanks in advance.

with much gayness,

Father Randy "Pudge" O'Day, S.J.

Dear Randy O'Day (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#6085968)

Dear Father O'Day:

Thanks for your letter. Being Catholic myself, I know exactly what you're talking about! It has always been our plan here at Apple Computer Inc to revolutionize personal computing with our high-quality and highly gay products.

I'm happy to answer your letter by letting you know that YES we will be releasing an entire hLife ("homo-life") software line. You'll be able to recognize it in stores by the small stylized logo depicting a large cock entering a tight anus with an Apple logo on it. ("Suddenly it all comes together" indeed!).

Anyway, I hope you and other members of our community will join us on our mission, and purchase the exciting new hLife boxed set. Only the boxed set comes with translucent cock rings!

Sincerely,

Harry Rodman
Vice-president
Homosexual Liaison Services
Apple Computer, Inc.

I don't know (0, Redundant)

General Sherman (614373) | more than 11 years ago | (#6086066)

This keyboard looks okay, but I don't think it would work for me in daily use. It just seems to awkward. I persoanlly use my left thumb to do the space bar, and I think I'd be deleting a lot of letters. We really need a two button trackpad mod. I've seen the underside of the trackpad button in my iBook (clamshell) and it looks pretty easy to mod. The cable comes out easily and the button shouldn't be too hard to put a two button version in there.

umm... is there a tilde on that thing? (0)

mniskin (239166) | more than 10 years ago | (#6087045)

Is there a ~ on it? Cause I don't see one...

Re:umm... is there a tilde on that thing? (1)

he1icine (512651) | more than 11 years ago | (#6087830)

It's there - shared w/ Caps-Lock which looks like you have to use ALT to enable (not such a bad idea maybe)

It is a bit pricey for my taste, and kinda ugly - but a good idea nonetheless

Re:umm... is there a tilde on that thing? (0)

mniskin (239166) | more than 11 years ago | (#6087898)

yeah, i map away my caps lock cause i never use it, ever

Mouse (1)

Vokbain (657712) | more than 11 years ago | (#6087502)

How does the mouse work on that thing?

Re:Mouse (1)

Mr. Light Touch (18906) | more than 11 years ago | (#6092838)

Just slide two fingers anywhere on the right half, right over the keys! To click, tap two fingertips simultaneously anywhere on the right half:

http://www.fingerworks.com/touchstream_gesture_g ui de.html

Re:Mouse (1)

JerryKnight (465510) | more than 11 years ago | (#6093067)

Two more cents worth...

Three fingers is click/drag, so gone are the days of double-click-dragging on the glidepoint. Another very useful thing is two-finger-drag on the non-mouse hand (default: left hand). That controls the text cursor.

Yeah, check the gesture guide. There are too many to mention, most of which I use frequently.

ugh.. (2, Insightful)

Suppafly (179830) | more than 11 years ago | (#6088272)

am i the only one that thinks splitting the space bar in half and making the left half of it into a backspace is a stupid idea. people learn to type on keyboards that have the space bar under either hand, its ignorant to assume that only the right hand will be used for space. backspace and space and totally different, its really annoying to be typeing along and delete the last character of every word you type and string all of your words together because some keyboard designer thought it would be cute to make half the space bar into a backspace key.. atleast make it a programable key so people can make it back into a space bar. if you make it just a backspace or delete key, its not really possible to remap it without messing up the backspace key that is in the proper location.

Re:ugh.. (1)

JerryKnight (465510) | more than 11 years ago | (#6093090)

Well the labelling may be permanent but the function isn't. If you really have a serious problem remapping the backspace key in your head, remap it with the gesture editor. You can change just about anything the firmware does with that.

And no, I don't think the split space bar is stupid because backspace is now extremely easier to hit.

Better: spend 10 minutes to convert to Dvorak (1)

chessnotation (601394) | more than 11 years ago | (#6092131)

Every time I see yet another lateset and greatest, high priced, "ergonomic" keyboard with the ancient Sholes (QWERTY) layout, I have to laugh. If you want minimal finger travel, less muscle stress, and faster touch typing, then switch over to the Dvorak layout. Apple makes this easy in software (System Preferences -> International -> Input Menu -> Dvorak). I've done this along with a keycap migration with all my machines including my 15 inch TiBook and, like nearly all Dvorak users, will never go back.

Re:Better: spend 10 minutes to convert to Dvorak (0)

Anonymous Coward | more than 11 years ago | (#6092944)

If you read the bottom of the company's page, you will see it is also available in dvorak format.

Re:Better: spend 10 minutes to convert to Dvorak (1)

chessnotation (601394) | more than 11 years ago | (#6097723)

And if you read the page http://www.fingerworks.com/images/layouts/MacNTouc h_printable.html you'll see: "We expect a Dvorak version will be available". So it's not there yet. At least they have thought about it. Note: on Apple's new aluminum flavor notebooks, the D and K keys (or is it the F and J keys) have a raised bump; handy perhaps for Sholes typists, but of liitle use with Dvorak key cap re-mapping. I'd prefer a bumpless keyboard. At least it's not disfigured by marring the H-N-J triad with a ThinkPad style magic nipple pointer.

Been there, done both (1)

JerryKnight (465510) | more than 11 years ago | (#6093140)

I switched to dvorak about a month before getting the LP, and yes that switch alone helped my typing comfort immensely. Then I got rid of my mouse by switching to the keyboard the MacNTouch seems directly descended from (glue the halves together and compact it a little to fit).

I don't really laugh at the qwerty-ness of the MacNTouch. Somebody "normal" at some point will want to type on it since it is so cool. They won't pause for a month to learn Dvorak before trying out the keyboard, and dvorak typers are 99% touch-typists, so qwerty is the best bet if you can only afford r&d for one layout for starters. Keep in mind that the keyboard can go dvorak in firmware (it has to to get all the extra keys mapped correctly) so soft-dvorak is unnecessary.

Yes, dvorak will help, and it should probably be learned first, in my opinion, but that doesn't detract from the MacNTouch's appeal or value. It is very much worth the cost, if you ask me or any current TouchStream user.

Ctrl key still retarded, I see (2, Insightful)

TomatoMan (93630) | more than 11 years ago | (#6092645)

Why on earth can't someone make a powerbook keyboard with the control key in the right place? I defy anybody to type a ctrl-a with their left hand, with the ctrl key one key to the RIGHT of the fn key in the corner, without either rotating their entire hand from the wrist, or inflicting major tendon damage. Don't even TRY ctrl-q.

Apple's own full-sized keyboards put the control key in the lower left corner where it belongs, although it should REALLY go where caps lock is. Why must they have it out of place on the powerbooks?

Yes, I know about the software mapping utilities such as uControl [gnufoo.org] , which I use, but they all have quirks and have a nasty tendency to cause kernel panics on system upgrades. If someone comes up with a "programmers's keyboard," I've got a nice pile of money to throw at them.

Re:Ctrl key still retarded, I see (2, Interesting)

Mr. Light Touch (18906) | more than 11 years ago | (#6092832)

This is really a mute point with TouchStreams, since our modifier chords:

http://www.fingerworks.com/modifiers.html

for Shift, Ctrl, and Alt are much nicer than any pinky control key. And if you're an Emacs user, our Emacs mode automatically generates those crazy C-x C-f ... sequences from simple gestures.

Re:Ctrl key still retarded, I see (1)

TomatoMan (93630) | more than 11 years ago | (#6093311)

moot point? :)

I appreciate the thought, but my emacs keys are wired into my brain (and fingers) with about 17 years of use now, and I can do C-x C-f with about one braincell's worth of reflex directive. I'd just like the friggin' control key in the corner like it is on every other keyboard on earth.

Note this is primarily a gripe at Apple, not you.

Won't be long until ... (1)

torpor (458) | more than 11 years ago | (#6094140)

... software synthesizer manufacturers will start bundling their own control-surface keyboards for use with their apps.

I like this idea, actually, as much as it doesn't make sense for me to do so (I work for a company which makes hardware synthesziers, after all)... if more apps were able to have their own keyboards for special-uses, maybe we'd see some really interesting innovation in hardware control surface design...

Anyway, it'll be interesting to see how long it takes until NI Reaktor comes with its own drop-in control surface. I think its pretty cheap to manufacture these keyboards for the tiBooks ...

Re:Won't be long until ... (1)

williwilli (639147) | more than 11 years ago | (#6103877)

interesting idea... I know there is a touch-based control surface that works over USB or MIDI, but it is more like 5+ 'strips' that would work well to replace mixer controls. This smooth surface could emulate mixer controls as well as piano keys! sure playing a real acoustic piano is the real®©(TM) thing, but this would be great for music composition on the road. now if only there were some small LED under the keyboard to make multiple radical remappings more apparent.... :)

Interesting looking, but I'm hesitant.... (1)

MidKnight (19766) | more than 11 years ago | (#6098043)

This certainly does look interesting, and I do like the concept of "chords" replacing modifier keys. But I have to admit that, like everyone, I'm resistant to change.

How long would it take me to change over to not having the click-y feeling of mechanical keys? It's a fact that my fingers have had that feedback system beat into them for over 20 years now, and I'm not sure I'd be able to change (even if it is better for me in the long run).

It sounds like some folks here are happy users of these keyboards though -- how long did it take you to convert over? Are you a developer? Is there any place where we could test drive these suckers?

--Mid

Re:Interesting looking, but I'm hesitant.... (1)

JerryKnight (465510) | more than 11 years ago | (#6099809)

Having used an LP for about 10 months, I can say that it is well worth the time and effort (and money!). It was a rough 2 weeks at the start, learning to type again, but after that it has only gotten easier. I still make a few typos, but that may partially be due to learning Dvorak only a month before switching to the LP. I would NOT recommend trying both switches simultaneously.

If you remind yourself of the awesome mousing/gesture abilities the keyboard offers, the headache of learning zero-force/zero-feedback typing is manageable, and the typing itself offers benefits once you've gotten used to it. For one thing, it is totally silent, which is good when in proximity with lots of people.

From what I've seen, everyone who has posted on slashdot (in related articles) about owning one of these keyboards has been very happy with them. We (the TouchStream users) don't have to reach to the side of the keyboard to move the mouse. Our pinkies do alot less travel to the side keys, thanks to the modified key layout and modifier chords. If you try the keyboard and stick to it, I am sure you will agree that it is superior to clickity-keyboard and mouse.

Fingerworks may have some network of people who can demo the keyboard, but if you find someone who owns one, they would likely be willing to let you try it out. I certainly would be willing to let anyone in my area (Waco, TX) see what the LP can do and how difficult it would be to learn. Perhaps Fingerworks could host some kind of Touchstream Users Group (TUG) so interested people can contact someone nearby to ask for a demo. Mr. Light Touch, you work there, could this sort of thing be a good idea to help with promotion?

Re:Interesting looking, but I'm hesitant.... (1)

Mr. Light Touch (18906) | more than 11 years ago | (#6101816)

We're in the process of setting up a community/forum on the FingerWorks site, which could certainly become an organizing hub for TouchStream User Groups. I'll talk to my colleagues about having a 'TouchStream User Group' section.

really, pre-order now... (1)

rhetland (259464) | more than 11 years ago | (#6111976)

I have been using the touchstream LP for about a month now, and I am toatally hooked. I take it with me on trips now, because using a traditional keyboard is annoying.

This is how it works.. The touchpad can sense diferent numbers of fingers on the board: typing is one finger, mousing is two fingers (right hand), click-drag is three fingers. There are also 'gestures' that can be used to do common things (similar to the command-* keystrokes). You can do things like copy, cut, paste, open, save, close, etc. Look at the finger works website for more info.

My assesement after one month is this: typing is a bit slower, but it is made up for by the utter ease of the guestures. Also, my typing is only a bit slower than on a conventional keyboard. But the absolutely best thing is *never* having to reach for a mouse again.

It is a bit like investing in learning vi or emacs keystrokes. At first, picking things out of a menu would be faster, but once you get the hang of the key sequences, they are *much* faster. You don't even realize you are doing them, as they become built into your fingers. How many of you have 'emacsified' fingers? I know I do...

You can also reprogram the guesures with a fairly sophisticated program available on the fingerworks website. I have put in a few of my favorite emacs comands as simple gestures with essentially no work. The only trouble is in deciding how you will put it all in efficiently.

As soon as they get one of these for the PB17, I will get one...
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